Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

[Anvil1984]

No offence but the blogger needs to get him some perspective on himself

wonder why Northern Rail is unwilling or unable to make the results of their investigation public? To me it would seem like a more serious investigation if the results as well as the planned follow-up were shared with the general public. Barring a public statement and a serious follow-up, this may very likely happen again

What an idiot, why would Northern tell him, its between them, the guard involved and if there was a serious outcome themselves they'd go through proper media and not some minor website
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I would have travelled on the next train if I had been given a reason as to why I could not travel on the one about to depart now.

But you have stated on Digital Spy on at least one occasion you were given a reason but weren't happy with it, so which is it? btw this is from post 505 on DS

I'm saying i cant accept that reason - did not say he had given me that as a reason. The second guy kind of gave that as a reason. When he said I need a bigger train.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Thanks for the link. One point I would point out is their advice about filming and posting on YouTube. Legally, you can film anything in any public place for personal use. However, any individually recognisable person shown therein has to give their written consent before any photograph or recording before such material can be publicly published. If they do not give their consent, their identity must be disguised. Any person photographed or filmed and released in any published material without their consent and without their identity being disguised has grounds to sue the author of the material for invasion of privacy. Also, railway stations are not public places. They are private property to which public are granted conditional access. Whilst photography and filming for personal use are generally permitted, you are required to cease immediately if asked by an authorised person (station staff, train company staff, BTP staff, etc.) However, any publication (whether for commercial gain or not) invalidates the term of personal use, and therefore in such case you have to advance written permission to film at railway stations.

As an aside, I have been a member of the DDA Compliance Working Group for my employer since 2003, working in liaison with several charities and support groups to facilitate access and ensure DDA compliance. This is something I am part of over and above my employment duties and for which I do not get paid. I am also on the Sustainable Transport Working Group also. I am involved in these areas because I care about issues in these areas.

 

[185]

I think there had been a previous incident between that customer in the wheelchair and the conductor, and other conductors and Piccadilly station staff.

Talk is of a baby almost being dropped previously, but that is just a rumour.

I personally have carried that passenger (on a different company) before without incident, but wouldn't be surprised if there's more to this than meets the eye. I don't think any frontline staff would refuse wheelchair assistance without a very good reason.

Northern should investigate this impartially and properly, and not allow the media or the passenger to influence any outcome.

 

[tonyaran]

Q6) do you accept that if you do not book ahead, if many other passengers already board a train before you get there and if the train is full at the point where you arrive, you won't be able to travel, and do you accept that if you do not book ahead, there is no way to ensure that a train of an 'accessible' type is allocated to that service, and that as a result an alternative of a later train, or alternative transport e.g. a taxi may have to be offered?

If I book ahead then I would make sure the booking is with reservation therefore entitling me to travel on that train. When you book assitance they do offer you the option of reserving seats/space. So if you have booked ahead, with reservation, then you are entitled to travel and the other passengers will have to move. But, as is the case with buses, a wheelchair passenger has preference and right over other able-bodied passengers and his/her space/seat should be vacated if/when required to do so.

do you accept that if you do not book ahead, there is no way to ensure that a train of an 'accessible' type is allocated to that service, and that as a result an alternative of a later train, or alternative transport e.g. a taxi may have to be offered?

This question has been answered by the Northern Rail official that shared the news reports with me on Monday evening.

I have a number of customers at my station who travel every day, and make a booking for when they want to travel. I have a number of other customers, who don't travel every day but travel frequently, who can arrive at any time. They call ahead because it makes things easier for everybody. Generally, they say something like 'I'm about ten minutes away, I'm hoping to get the xx.xx train. Can someone meet me at the entrance with a wheelchair/get a ramp ready for that train/assist me from the entrance?'

It is impossible to call ahead within minutes of travel as the Journey Care number - operated by Virgin on 08457 443366 - requires minimun 24 hours notice. Anything less and they are unable to 'guarantee' assistance. Albeit this Journey Care service is for assitance on a larger scale and not just for putting a simple ramp out. The service is for assitance to and from taxi bays and other 'help' during the journey. I do not care such extensive assistance.

And for a second if we do take your 'idea' of calling up beforehand then who should be paying for this call? Is it fair for a disabled person to pay to call a number for assitance on a train journey when an able-bodied person does not have to such thing? And if that disabled person uses a train 3/4 times every day then how much would the bills accumulate to? Should this number not atleast be a free number?

Nobody is restricting disabled customers from travelling at certain times. However, sometimes, with the best will in the world their request cannot be acommodated. For example, on one of the lines my station serves there are a number of stations that have platforms shorter than many of the trains, so customers must travel in the front four coaches of a train. Sometimes, unfortunately, the wheelchair space on a train is in coach number five. We explain the situation and they are reasonable, accept that it's not safe for them to travel on that train and wait for the next one.

I have travelled on the route - both ways - many times and have had no problems. I have also used different types of trains and ramps for this journey. And if there was a problem this time then at least one of the officials should have told me. Even the lady at the end of the video - who was a Northern Rail official - was not aware of the problem. I would never travel on something that would endanger me, my family or anyone else.
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In that case, it does present rather more questions...

Did the guard inform the passenger the next train was in 12 minutes time? If the answer is yes, then I personally am of the view that the passengers actions could be seen as unreasonable.

The guard did not inform me of the timing of the next train but due to experience and past travel I am/was aware of the next train.

Why was the reaction so extreme, given a mere 12 minute delay?

I wanted a valid reason for not being allowed on this train. Which I did not get.

 

[Anvil1984]

Have you ever used a 2 part ramp?

 

[tonyaran]

No offence but the blogger needs to get him some perspective on himself



What an idiot, why would Northern tell him, its between them, the guard involved and if there was a serious outcome themselves they'd go through proper media and not some minor website
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But you have stated on Digital Spy on at least one occasion you were given a reason but weren't happy with it, so which is it? btw this is from post 505 on DS

The second guy told me I need a bigger train which means this one is small. That in itself is a 'reason'. But it was not directly communicated to me and if it had been, I would not accept it. I have travelled on this type of train to Guide Bridge and from Guide Bridge many times before.

 

[Anvil1984]

But you have stated that if you were given a reason even a made up one you would have accepted it

Had he given me a reason to which I had no knowledge about - even if it was untrue - I would have accepted it.

It states in Northern Rail literature that Guide Bridge has difficulties on both platforms as well. What happened on this "last time" the guard is referring to

 

[tonyaran]

As an aside, I have been a member of the DDA Compliance Working Group for my employer since 2003, working in liaison with several charities and support groups to facilitate access and ensure DDA compliance. This is something I am part of over and above my employment duties and for which I do not get paid. I am also on the Sustainable Transport Working Group also. I am involved in these areas because I care about issues in these areas.

Very admirable. But you only comply, you do no instate. The matter here is either the guard was 'too lazy' to get the ramp out or he 'had reason' not to do so. If he was just not bothered then it is a breach of his contract with NR, I assume. And if it is the latter then it is a matter of serious concern for the rail company. They should have made this train and this route accessible for wheelchair travellers. But having travelled on this route prior, I cant envisage this as being the reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think there had been a previous incident between that customer in the wheelchair and the conductor, and other conductors and Piccadilly station staff.

Talk is of a baby almost being dropped previously, but that is just a rumour.

I personally have carried that passenger (on a different company) before without incident, but wouldn't be surprised if there's more to this than meets the eye. I don't think any frontline staff would refuse wheelchair assistance without a very good reason.

Northern should investigate this impartially and properly, and not allow the media or the passenger to influence any outcome.

Thank you. If you recall assiting me then you will be aware on how easy it is to get the ramp out. I dont require much assisting.

And if the matter is of the child, then again it sould have been communicated to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have you ever used a 2 part ramp?

Yes, I have used a 2 part ramp in the past.

 

[Anvil1984]

]Thank you. If you recall assiting me then you will be aware on how easy it is to get the ramp out. I dont require much assisting.

But he hasn't assisted you on that type of train at the alighting station and with a 2 part ramp so he won't know how it is assisting anyone at that station

And you also stated on DS that you've never used a 2 part ramp and didnt know how it would work, so again which is it?

 

[tonyaran]

But you have stated that if you were given a reason even a made up one you would have accepted it

It states in Northern Rail literature that Guide Bridge has difficulties on both platforms as well. What happened on this "last time" the guard is referring to

I dont recall any incident prior to this ever happeing to me.

 

[EM2]

The customers I deal with simply call the Station Reception. I'm sure if you asked at Piccadilly, they would gladly give you that number. In fact, in thirty seconds I've found it, via the Network Rail website:Station enquiries 08457 11 41 41
Having read the thread at Digital Spy, the one question remains. Are you 100% certain that you have caught a train *exactly* the same as this:
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Pacer_(train)
when travelling to Guide Bridge from Manchester?

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Would an able-bodied person have to call up 24 hours before to book travel on public transport?

Restricting the disabled to certain times for travel is a form of discrimination.

As a supporter of disabled rights you're repeatedly making the same remark which even the charities and support groups I work with acknowledge does more harm to the cause of disabled rights than anything else. Of course an able bodied person isn't expected to call in advance for assistance - because they do not need assistance. The greatest majority of people are able-bodied. It is not discrimination that you require assistance. Until relatively recently there was little or no regard given to disabled people when designing buildings, vehicles, etc. That is changing, and things are improving, but you cannot do everything overnight. There is still a long way to go, which is acknowledged in the Disability Discrimination Act. Do you expect somehow for the entire country to be dismantled and rebuilt to make everything everywhere freely accessible at any time to all disabled people without any need for any assistance whatsoever? I'm sorry but that is completely unrealistic.

 

[ukrob]

tonyayrun on Digital Spy, people starting arguing about very daft things like the speed of your wheelchair etc - which has no relevance.

Why are you now doing the same thing here, arguing about a local rate call to book assistance within Virgin Trains? It has zero relevance to your story about Northern Rail.

Second point, on Digital Spy you state repeatedly that you have indeed used this kind of train before, but you also state that you have never used a two part ramp before. How is that so? But for the record, I agree that it should be a free number.

 

[tonyaran]

But he hasn't assisted you on that type of train at the alighting station and with a 2 part ramp so he won't know how it is assisting anyone at that station

And you also stated on DS that you've never used a 2 part ramp and didnt know how it would work, so again which is it?

I dont know how a 2-part ramp works but I have used it once before I believe so. It must have been a very long time ago that is why I cant correctly remember. If this guard is aware of any incident, be it with me or anyone else, then there would be cctv about it and an incident report filed.

 

[ukrob]

Yes, I have used a 2 part ramp in the past.

You categorically stated on Digital Spy that you haven't used a two part ramp before. Your story seems to constantly change when new information comes your way about the technicalities of how things work.

 

[YorkshireBear]

i know 142's can be a nightmare for wheelchair uses as they are my local stock, and i was a wheelchair user for a year 6 years ago.
I'm sorry for what has happened to you but i think poor communication is at hand here, he has not been clear and you are not in possesion of all the facts he had. Something will have gone on that no one as of this point knows about as it is still under investigation. I can not see staff at one of britains busiest railway stations while being filmed point blanc refusing to help a wheelchair user. I just can't see it, its part of training for every job. When all facts are possessed then we can all make our judgements.
If the conductor is guilty from investigation so be it. If he isn't guilty (truthfully, not cover up) but is sacked under media pressure you should be ashamed of yourself as he will have a family to support.

Even if he is at fault here, you should never be scared to ride a train, because 1 kid shouted abusive words at me down a street infront of my girlfriend doesnt mean i take a long route everytime. 1 man, don't let it stop you using train.

Not having a go at you here. just making observations.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Very admirable. But you only comply, you do no instate.

Sorry, you've lost me there.

 

[tonyaran]

The customers I deal with simply call the Station Reception. I'm sure if you asked at Piccadilly, they would gladly give you that number. In fact, in thirty seconds I've found it, via the Network Rail website:Station enquiries 08457 11 41 41
Having read the thread at Digital Spy, the one question remains. Are you 100% certain that you have caught a train *exactly* the same as this:
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Pacer_(train)
when travelling to Guide Bridge from Manchester?

08457 11 41 41 is number for Neywork Rail and not the Piccadilly station. And who would pay to call for a number for assistance if required every day of the week, twice?

 

[Anvil1984]

You have categorically stated that you have never used a 2 part ramp on this route on DS,you even went as far to have said a 2 part ramp on a 2 step train would be impossible now funnily enough you have but don't remember when, when was your previous journey on a class 142 from Manchester Piccadilly to Guide Bridge

 

[tonyaran]

As a supporter of disabled rights you're repeatedly making the same remark which even the charities and support groups I work with acknowledge does more harm to the cause of disabled rights than anything else. Of course an able bodied person isn't expected to call in advance for assistance - because they do not need assistance. The greatest majority of people are able-bodied. It is not discrimination that you require assistance. Until relatively recently there was little or no regard given to disabled people when designing buildings, vehicles, etc. That is changing, and things are improving, but you cannot do everything overnight. There is still a long way to go, which is acknowledged in the Disability Discrimination Act. Do you expect somehow for the entire country to be dismantled and rebuilt to make everything everywhere freely accessible at any time to all disabled people without any need for any assistance whatsoever? I'm sorry but that is completely unrealistic.

Setting up something as simple as a 24 hour freephone number for assistance requests on train journeys - calls that can then be relayed to staff at the relevant station - is not something very drastic or huge. Can not even that be done?

 

[EM2]

I dont know how a 2-part ramp works but I have used it once before I believe so. It must have been a very long time ago that is why I cant correctly remember. If this guard is aware of any incident, be it with me or anyone else, then there would be cctv about it and an incident report filed.

To alight from a Class 142 train (they type you wished to board last weekend), it is necessary to use a two-part ramp.
If you used one a very long time ago, it follows that it CANNOT have been at Guide Bridge, because you have only been using that station for a few months.

 

[Anvil1984]

Sorry, you've lost me there.

Set up in position; install or establish apparantly, or you saying that the jimrbrobinson only does what hes told and doesn't attempt to shake anything up like you have tried to do here?

 

[ukrob]

Setting up something as simple as a 24 hour freephone number for assistance requests on train journeys - calls that can then be relayed to staff at the relevant station - is not something very drastic or huge. Can not even that be done?

With respect, we are talking about your story here, lets not go off on a tangent.

 

[Anvil1984]

Gong back to the question when was the last time you alighted a class 142 at Guide Bridge prior to the incident

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Quote: "Setting up something as simple as a 24 hour freephone number for assistance requests on train journeys - calls that can then be relayed to staff at the relevant station - is not something very drastic or huge. Can not even that be done?"

And where does the money come from to pay for this line? Or the staff that would be required to cover it 24-hours a day up and down the country on the off-chance that a disabled customer might call? I'm sorry but you are being totally unrealistic. It is not unreasonable to be expected to make a local-rate phone call to contact any organisation's general customer services section and then can and do relay information to the people on the ground. Many companies / organisations don't even have a freephone or local-rate call line. It's a normal local number with a local prefix.

 

[Lampshade]

Gong back to the question when was the last time you alighted a class 142 at Guide Bridge prior to the incident

May I add 'from Manchester' to this? I don't believe platform 2 has the same problems, it being an old island platform and therefore larger.

 

[Anvil1984]

Thank you for that just getting used to this forum debate mularkey

 

[tonyaran]

i know 142's can be a nightmare for wheelchair uses as they are my local stock, and i was a wheelchair user for a year 6 years ago.
I'm sorry for what has happened to you but i think poor communication is at hand here, he has not been clear and you are not in possesion of all the facts he had. Something will have gone on that no one as of this point knows about as it is still under investigation. I can not see staff at one of britains busiest railway stations while being filmed point blanc refusing to help a wheelchair user. I just can't see it, its part of training for every job. When all facts are possessed then we can all make our judgements.
If the conductor is guilty from investigation so be it. If he isn't guilty (truthfully, not cover up) but is sacked under media pressure you should be ashamed of yourself as he will have a family to support.

Even if he is at fault here, you should never be scared to ride a train, because 1 kid shouted abusive words at me down a street infront of my girlfriend doesnt mean i take a long route everytime. 1 man, don't let it stop you using train.

Not having a go at you here. just making observations.

A fantastic post. You are correct on every matter apart from the guard sacking. I do not support that. I have gone on accord to say that the guard should not be sacked for something like this. One mistake (if there was a mistake) should not define his whole career and if it comes to him being sacked then I will work to get him re-instated.

 

[yorkie]

I have a couple of questions:

Were you on your outward or return journey, or was it a single journey?

If it was your outward or you were doing a single journey, I guess you would have gone to the ticket office to buy a ticket? When there, did you mention to someone that you would require assistance, or did they inform you who you should seek for assistance?

 

[tonyaran]

Sorry, you've lost me there.

Comply: Meet specified standards.

Instate: Set up in position; install or establish.