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Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

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O L Leigh

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You've made value judgements about "Mr K" in the same way as other members here have but, unless you know him personally, you have no way of knowing whether or not your judgements about him are accurate. You've chosen to believe his 4 minutes of video in isolation, irrespective of the facts that have come to light since, and that is something you're perfectly entitled to do.

For the record, I happen not to agree with this forum's tendency to tar people with a very broad brush, but you have just fallen into the same pitfall of leaping to a decision. I, however, am a pragmatist and am slower to reach a decision, preferring to gather all available information. While I am sorry for "Mr K's" disadvantaged situation, he clearly has something of a chip on his shoulder. Perhaps he feels he is a campaigner for better transport for the disabled, which is a noble aspiration. However, his methods stink and the information that is slowly leaking out about him strongly suggest that he is a trouble-maker.

I'm glad that you feel so confident in your own convictions, but please don't come sermonising here or elsewhere. We are as entitled to our own opinions as you are to yours.

O L Leigh
 
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yorkie

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Edit: O L Leigh - excellent post above! I agree entirely (and no, 'wanda', we're not forming a 'gang'; I just happen to independently agree with the views he expressed above)

There is never any excuse for rudeness.
Some will disagree, some will say the 'victim' was rude, or at least his tone appeared to be very demanding, which could be interpreted as rudeness.
I assume some of you work for the rail companies? This may explain why there are so many complaints about how people are treated on trains
Yes, many people here do. But the majority of railway employees are helpful and friendly. Yes there is a minority who are not. I think you are, again, exaggerating.
- I would remind you that we are all employed to provide a service to our customers who pay our wages - and before you get on a high horse and talk about H & S, that is a red herring and you know it.
Erm, no it isn't, and you know it!
You have created a littel gang
No, there is no "gang"
and are backing each other up in making unjustifiable comments for which you have no evidence.
Some people are backing others up, but not all of us. As for the unjustifiable comments, quote them and disagree with them one by one, instead of making generic statements that are meaningless.
I do not think you are insensitive at all. I think you are hyper sensitive to anything that involves a) making an effort to see someone elses point of view b) standing up for what is right (n=much easier to slump back in your chair and cast around for excuses to justify bad behaviour) c) anything that may mean your world view changes.
These are generic assumptions about people that have no basis whatsoever.
Mr K is a disabled person trying to travel - he is not 'a lying scumbag'
One person called him that; go disagree with him. If Mr K wishes to sue him for libel, he can do so. This could, however, be risky and costly...
nor is he making things up. The camera does not lie - there is 4 minutes of evidence of the appalling treatment he received. Grow up and face reality. And I am not Mr K -(s0meone is really clutching at straws here to discredit the poor man!)
Yes, the evidence on the video is not good viewing at all, but we don't know what happened before that (or after). Did Mr K get to Guide Bridge that evening? Did he get the next train? Was he really prevented from travelling or simply delayed? Do you accept that this type of train cannot, as we are told, have ramps deployed at the destination station?
I started writing this in the hope that some of you will feel shame at your bad behaviour
Oh dear, you are losing all credibility.
due to the rude and nasty things you have been writing here- but that is up to you. I do hope you are never put in the position of having to beg some stranger to behave decently towards you in order to get home. I think if the stranger was Mr K (in some universe where he was not disabled ) I suspect he would be kind, considerate and efficient.

Who is this "you" you go on about? I am tired of saying this, but please quote someone you disagree with and respond to them directly.
Think about that. What face are you showing to the world, and how do you think you make people working on the railways appear to the rest of the world. I'll tell you - you are demonstrating that the railways are staffed by people who don't help even the most obviously disabled - I say again, shame on you.
Shame on who?
 

Flamingo

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OK Wanda, we'll all walk away and hang our heads 9in shame because an anonymous poster on the internet, with poor logic and no evidence has decided that we don't do our jobs properly. Indeed, it's a wonder that any trains run, and any customers do manage to get to any destinations. I wonder who all the people are who have written letters of praise to my managers are, they are obviously wrong because you say so.

OK, who are you and what do you do for a living? You are quick enough to have a pop at the entire transport industry. What is your background, and what qualifies you to make your sweeping statements? In fact, why should anybody give any weight at all to your self-opinionated crayonings? Let everybody know a bit more about yourself, and then everyone can decide if your opinions actually count for anything, or if they are the ramblings of a deranged mind and not enough medication.

Over to you.

(ps, my background is 5 years rail industry, 20 years healthcare, 10 years military)
 

HSTfan!!!

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There is never any excuse for rudeness. I assume some of you work for the rail companies? This may explain why there are so many complaints about how people are treated on trains - I would remind you that we are all employed to provide a service to our customers who pay our wages - and before you get on a high horse and talk about H & S, that is a red herring and you know it.

Think about that. What face are you showing to the world, and how do you think you make people working on the railways appear to the rest of the world. I'll tell you - you are demonstrating that the railways are staffed by people who don't help even the most obviously disabled - I say again, shame on you.

Yes there are several members of railway staff here.
We could provide a better service to disabled people, you're right, if we had the manpower and resources, which I'm doubtful will happen whilst the railways are run privately. You try running around dealing with trains, perhaps assisting a visually impaired customer and having people completely ignore you and their presence, whilst others bicker on in your ear about the connection they missed when there are other staff visible to deal with such issues.

I was always taught to treat people as I wish to be treated, which is why 99% of the time I'd say I try to be helpful and friendly even.
You'll find unfortunately a lot of people think you're there to run around after them, to cater to their every need - no I can't delay trains, this isn't a taxi service, but like any other job, you get abuse for doing your job, the way you're supposed to.

I can see both sides of the story, yes the railway does need to do alot better, yes there are too many relaxed staff out there stuck in their ways, but you'll also find the public don't always help themselves.

I think your last comment is rather below the belt, just because one man has experienced poor service, doesn't mean every disabled passenger using the network is treated poorly.
 

O L Leigh

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I say again, shame on you.

For just such an eventuality.

troll.jpg


Wanda is clearly not interested in engaging in a discussion. Further replies would just be a waste of time.

O L Leigh
 

O L Leigh

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No. That would be unkind.

I honestly think Wanda has his/her heart in the right place but has been taken-in by the video and is just a little misguided. His/her posts are typical of someone who knows little and isn't prepared to be enlightened because it would dilute his/her righteous indignation and the perceived injustice.

O L Leigh
 

Skimble19

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Good lord. Having just spent way too long reading all of the crazily long thread on DS as well as the now 11 page long thread on here I have to say this is all absolutely ridiculous.. It's quite obvious that "Mr K" has massively over-exaggerated what's happened, and his short video isn't exactly helpful as it doesn't show what the two men said to him before he started filming, and conveniently cuts off just as the woman starts talking to him..

I really cannot understand why there are still people on that forum actively defending him, let alone the ones saying the guard should be sacked..!

Oh, and at a quick glance I'd guess "wanda" is "Mr K" too.. like that rather amusing pic above says, ignore "it". (I say it, I wouldn't like to put a gender to it in case it gets narky at me about being sexist...)
 

142094

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Seems to be a lot of misinformation around especially on Digital Spy and especially about 142s. A lot of people who have no experience of the railways trying to make up different facts - including Wanda and this tonyaryan.

I hope that when the investigation is completed and more than likely the guard returned to service, he gets a full apology.
 

Greenback

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You mean you're not an evil green toad? Oh my god, I feel like I've been deceived all this time!

Do you play darts with Penfold and Danger Mouse?! Thing is, when I play darts everyone just calls me s**t. :)

Actually, yes! Well, Penfold anyway! A short, bald gentleman acquired the nickname when he started going to the pub, and when we were seen standing at the bar together, I got the name Greenback. I'd never even seen Dangermouse at that point and didn't even know who these characters were!

There is never any excuse for rudeness. I assume some of you work for the rail companies? This may explain why there are so many complaints about how people are treated on trains - I would remind you that we are all employed to provide a service to our customers who pay our wages - and before you get on a high horse and talk about H & S, that is a red herring and you know it. You have created a littel gang and are backing each other up in making unjustifiable comments for which you have no evidence. I do not think you are insensitive at all. I think you are hyper sensitive to anything that involves a) making an effort to see someone elses point of view b) standing up for what is right (n=much easier to slump back in your chair and cast around for excuses to justify bad behaviour) c) anything that may mean your world view changes.

Mr K is a disabled person trying to travel - he is not 'a lying scumbag' nor is he making things up. The camera does not lie - there is 4 minutes of evidence of the appalling treatment he received. Grow up and face reality. And I am not Mr K -(s0meone is really clutching at straws here to discredit the poor man!)

I started writing this in the hope that some of you will feel shame at your bad behaviour due to the rude and nasty things you have been writing here - but that is up to you. I do hope you are never put in the position of having to beg some stranger to behave decently towards you in order to get home. I think if the stranger was Mr K (in some universe where he was not disabled ) I suspect he would be kind, considerate and efficient.

Think about that. What face are you showing to the world, and how do you think you make people working on the railways appear to the rest of the world. I'll tell you - you are demonstrating that the railways are staffed by people who don't help even the most obviously disabled - I say again, shame on you.

It is difficult to make a comment on such a sanctimonious and patronising post without becoming angry and irrational. So I won't. Except to say it so full of assumptions that it has been rendered pretty pointless and irrelevant to the real issues.

No. That would be unkind.

I honestly think Wanda has his/her heart in the right place but has been taken-in by the video and is just a little misguided. His/her posts are typical of someone who knows little and isn't prepared to be enlightened because it would dilute his/her righteous indignation and the perceived injustice.

O L Leigh

Yes, I believe it is Wanda who is the one that is not prpepared to change their view of the world. Every day, millions of people are inconvenienced in some way, on and off the railway system. Whether it is by being put on hold, which apparently so enraged Mr Khaliq, or by having to wait at the doctors for a late running appointment, or by a million other things. Here are a few examples I have seen that might help put this incident, of which we still know too little into a bit of context.

Someone with a bicycle cannot get on a full train. There ar ealready three bikes on, and passnegers are standing in the vestibules. The cyclist could have reserved a space but didn't. He has to wait for the next train in 30 minutes, and hope there is space on that one.

It's not ideal, but it happens.

A bus pulls up at the local hospital. It's not a low floor, accessible bus, so the driver informs a couple with a buggy that sorry, they can't board without collapsing it. There will be another bus in 7 minutes.

It's not ideal, but it happens.

In the first instance, the customer accepted the situation with good grace. In the second, the man with the buggy subjected the bus driver to a torrent of foul mouthed abuse.

Both of the situations are regrettable. In an ideal world anyone with bicycles, a buggy or wheelchair will be able to be conveyed on all sorts of public transport on demand and in complete comfort ad safety. Unfortunately, we do not live in that world. No amount of good intentions can change that, unfortunately.

My question to Wanda is, if it had been someone with a bicycle who had been told that they could not board a train, would they have then been justified in bullying and harrassing* the staff member to try and get on, starting a media campaign to highlight the ifficulties of travelling with a cycle? Or is it merely the fact that someone is in wheelchair that legitimises that sort of behaviour?

* I am not for one moment saying that that is what happened with Mr K. I am merely trying to establish Wanda's views on a hypothetical situation involving a comparator to someone in a wheelchair, as they have previosuly said the disabled deserve better service.
 

Greenback

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I don't really care if there's an answer or not. I had tog et it off my chest.

I hate inequality. I hate injustice even more. I object to being labelled by Wanda or anyone else.

What saddens me is that some people seem unable to look beyond the facts of this incident (whatever they trun out to be) and look at the wider implications.
 

spacehopper

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I've not wanted to wade into this.....

Everyone has their own opinions on this, everyone can view things with their own unique perspective that they have, the life experiences they have experienced etc.

You can view that video on so many levels-

The simple oh they didn't put the ramp down for the disabled man.

Some see these lazy, arrogant, racist, unhelpful, ill mannered, union militants- who are drivers, guards, second guard, station staff- whatever they don't know the grades and the roles all they see is the railway- and all the negative conations that the railway have confirmed for them.

Yep- both parties haven't come across well- you can defend both their actions- from your own personal view point. That view point maybe as a disabled person- it maybe as staff. If I was disabled I would see it from the disabled angle. That this is shocking, that this is typical, that everyone is so unhelpful to the disabled etc. That would be the life I know. That I see finger pointing, that I see I'm scared I'm going to be assaulted.

Or from the staff point of view- I can't take this wheelchair- I've explained why but the punter won't accept my reason, I've got a camera pointed in my face. This guy is a proper charlie.

I won't go on but my experiences of the railway and the disabled is very positive. The training is excellent- there is a really good video produced by one of the disabled charities that is shown and discussed. A disabled person comes in and talks about their life. The whole legal aspect is gone through in length but most people don't even think about DDA, they don't go and spew off about stuff- they just do it. Not because someone has so many rights but because they want to help. Ramps and wheelchairs the blind the elderly the infirm it is all covered. You also get stuff about hidden disabilities. Why is this spotter behaving like this- ah I see now- but its not obvious at first. We even get to role play at being a difficult disabled passenger. On most briefs or rides if there is time you demonstrate ramp usage.

We have to remember so much when it comes to DPPP. How can you expect disabled joe public to understand? All they want is to get from A to B. They don't know that, well actually to get to B you have to go to C and come back on same train to B but on the opposite side.

The railways are victorian- not all stations are suitable. The investment will never get every station up to DDA standards. The "Access for All" fund however is making a great difference. Where before you had to ring ahead, get the booking office to close, get them across a barrow crossing, wait until it's safe to cross- now they can just go down in the lift.

142s are horrible trains for everyone and not just the disabled. There are issues with the bump ramp, Northern in the last few months have put up notices about them. The ramps themselves are heavy, cumbersome and to be honest quite a faff. To get to the ramp you may have to close the leaf doors to get in. What a good idea put a ramp behind the door so when the door is open the ramp is now trapped behind this door. You then have to unlock the ramp- the metal restraining holder then usually comes loose from the fixing crashing to the floor. The bump ramp then falls over. Try and get the ramp onto the stepwell with out whacking anyone. Usually at this stage you get impatient passengers trying to barge on past you.

The ramp is quite long and on most platforms there isn't much leeway to fit the ramp and for the wheelchair to roll off. At some stops you can't actually get a ramp down on the platform because it is too narrow. Others you have to buzz the driver up and work together to stop the train right on the dot so that the door lines up with a wider part of the platform. Passenger gets off- we can't do anything beyond the platform for them. Then have to put the ramp away- other passengers will be walking up the ramp now. Close the door so you can secure it on the bulkhead. Trying to get the ramp and bump ramp to slot back in again can be like trying to get a square through a circle. Carry out your station working duties, 2 and away and your about 5 down.

Then you have a situation that will hopefully never happen! 2x142s- call at a station that only takes 1 set. So as laid down in sectional appendix- local door only. Wheelchair wants on. Only open a single leaf door- how is a wheelchair going to get through that? Do you arm all doors and hope for the best- what about an OTMR download? Ok sorry mate can't take your wheelchair. Can you get the ramp for me please. Sorry can't get a wheelchair on at this stop. Ok ring for a taxi- no reception, no nrn, station has no or limited road access. What happens to the fella in the wheelchair now.

Then you have the eddie the eagle factor- some of the platforms are so low the ramp wouldn't reach the platform from the stepwell. Or the angle is so steep the forces of the gravity prevent a wheelchair being able to board or alight safely, even with the strength of the incredible hulk.

So it is not always a black and white case- of why couldn't you put the ramp down for me?

Well because it is physically impossible to do so, sorry. It's not my fault, getting aggressive and saying I'm assaulting you, bringing up a recent media incident where someone got the sack, pointing a camera in my face, not taking no for answer isn't going to get you on this train. If you wait another 12 minutes there will be a train you can get on.

All the staff on this board, will have dealt with many disabled passengers with no problems whatsoever. You get to know the regular disabled passengers, they know the score- you'd have thought "Mr K" would too since he uses the trains so often....

It is a BIG help if you can use DPRS- first thing I ask is do you have booked assistance? Most of the time the answer is no, so you ring ahead or don't ring ahead as you know that no one will come out and assist, easier sometimes to do it on your own, used to it after all. Answer yes ,no harm in doing a double check, help your mate out on the platform by telling them where about they are sat. Not as easy as you think- oh the disabled space? Well if you have mixed fleet or a mixed formation they could be stood with the ramp at the wrong end of the platform. Mate of mine told me they used to page out which RIO sets were running around on which services as the disabled space on the RIO sets was in A rather than E. Some guards he says would stick them in H if it was quiet (that's first class!).

Once I even had a phone call asking if I had an assist sheet attached to my diagram? The bloke responsible for DDA / DPPP had made a ghost booking and was wanting to know if it had been attached to my diagram- sadly not. The situation for mainline guards is different as they get a list of all the reservations, all the booked bikes and all the booked assistance which is great! It will never happen to us poor souls who work Pacers. This sheet goes into some detail- for example you see someone in a wheelchair- oh they want the ramp down- but no when they booked with DPRS they just want a helping hand with luggage.

We do what we can but guards are the ones in at the deep end. Lot of unstaffed stations, lot of turn up and go disabled passengers, even at major mainline staffed stations we are the ones who sort them out. Take Man Picc they must have a dedicated Network Rail assistance team, the blue vests and the nice bit of kit buggies. Yet it is the guard that had to deal with "Mr K" or rather didn't. Most major mainline stations have a special disabled assistance meet and greet point or an information kiosk and a booking office, maybe some barriers, gateline staff, platform staff yet they manage to get through all of them and get to me who puts them on. Then you have all the differing TOCs- at this mainline station, the bus company decided in 1997 to get rid off all the RO2 staff to save money, the other TOC still have platform staff but won't deal with our silly small unimportant trains even they are meant to deal with all disabled passengers not just the ones going on their TOCs trains. Some TOCs provide a dedicated team to assist disabled passengers- shame others don't see how much easier it is to have these but try and cover it with existing staff who maybe busying going about other duties.

Anyway things are only going to get worse with trial by youtube and the media feeding frenzy fueled by false claims and publicity. How many more photos of police parked on double yellow lines, or bus drivers supposedly turfing people off for breast feeding are we going to read or see? The railways and thousands of staff do a good job most of the time when it comes to the disabled. I remember watching a BBC show where they sent out disabled people undercover using public transport and they encountered no problems. We don't charge the disabled for using wheelchairs!

Right time to have some nice Swiss Cheese and watch Rashomon.
 

jon0844

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PLEASE go and post that on Digital Spy, or let someone else quote it with a link. It's one of the first real perspectives from the 'other side'.
 

Skimble19

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That's great news, although I suspect "Mr K" will have his own views about why it's no longer there.. will probably try and claim he took it down...
 

Lampshade

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MidnightFlyer

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He does make such an idiot of himself. the idiots commenting on Youtube are saying 'when i see him I'm going to give him abuse' and 'the guard went on BNP marches' - when the BNP dont do marches. He raises his voice and he plays the old assault card - unbelivable :D
 

jimrbrobinson

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Perhaps what I am about to say could be viewed as 'off-topic' or borderline but... In this case could it be thought there are also greater issues in relation to the ethics of the media? Okay, the video was posted on You Tube (IMHO prematurely) and thereby placed into the public domain. The media were quick to embed / redistribute said footage alongside their 'articles'. It seems conceivable to me that this was the first Northern Rail management would have known about the incident. They were given no opportunity to look into the incident, and such publication is prejudicial to a full, thorough and unbiased enquiry / investigation into events as 'trial by media' has already started. Instead, as they (the media) were aware that the alleged incident only happened on Saturday, and it hit the media on Monday, should there be an ethical obligation on the part of the media not to 'go public' so quickly but to liaise between the complainant and the company first to ensure that both sides have fair opportunity to give their version of events and for it to be established and hopefully agreed, in full, exactly what went on without all the hype and supposition. Only then to report the outcome, as seen by both parties, in an impartial and balanced way.
 
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