Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

[Greenback]

This whole incident may raise bigger issues. I am concerned about the number of incidents that seem to emerge into the public domain through such media as YouTube and Twitter where staff are effectively hung out to dry, before a proper investigation can take place.

I am making no judgement about what may or may not have happened here, unlike many of the people who jumpoed to conclusions about the staff member on other forums. It is for the investigation toe stablish the relevant facts, taking into account statements from both parties, plus any witnesses to the events.

It may or may not be this case, but one day there will be a huge outcry for measures introduced to stop this sort of thing happening. This may well have implications for ordinary photgraphers, who may find their hobby becoming restricted in ways that soem people think already exist.

I really do fear that at some point ahead there will be a backlash against filming, which will cause real problems for those people who mind their own business, do not use their cameras as a way of self promotion and trouble making, and seek only to enjoy their hobby in relative peace.

The sort of thing that the wheelchair person has begun, whether intentionally or not, is potentially far bigger and more important than 'did the guard explain or not'. It can also be used as an argument for censorship of social media.

All of this could lead to worrying times.

 

[yorkie]

Once again, it appears train staff have been at the arse end of a battering for not pampering to certain whims. You all know my feelings on this, and the gentleman for doing the right thing and walking away. Frankly i doubt i would have held my tongue.
Clearly, not the whole story!!!

But he didn't just walk away did he? Have you seen the 'extended' video? Some people have to deal with far worse than this person gave, and have to respond professionally and 'hold their tongues' when presented with 'challenging' behaviour.

 

[ukrob]

His words on Digital Spy today:

And sometimes exaggerating things is the only way to attract attention to something

Another little gem:

I am just raising the issue of the guard not putting down a ramp. Which I believe he did because he was too lazy and arrogant.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

His words on Digital Spy today:



Another little gem:

He's shooting himself in the foot and making ana arse of himself simultaneously - berk.

 

[Lampshade]

Oof, I left that thread on page 42 last night, I have a fair bit of catching up to do

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Oof, I left that thread on page 42 last night, I have a fair bit of catching up to do

Yeah, it was on 55 when I checked a couple of hours ago.

 

[mrcheek]

Oof, I left that thread on page 42 last night, I have a fair bit of catching up to do

I think the rest of us might be better off just waiting here. You guys can summarise it for us!!!

 

[jon0844]

I picked out that quote for the forum, as it seemed people missed it amongst all the other contradictions. He's lost the argument now, especially when saying he's going to get a reconstruction done using another platform (train in opposite direction) and possibly use a different train type.

Someone has defended him saying it's okay to exaggerate to make a point! Not when you've now produced a video and said things to the media that has seen the guard getting death threats like cat-in-the-bin woman!

I thought he'd keep quiet, but it's quite good to see that he will come back on and drop himself in it even further.

 

[Lampshade]

I picked out that quote for the forum, as it seemed people missed it amongst all the other contradictions. He's lost the argument now, especially when saying he's going to get a reconstruction done using another platform (train in opposite direction) and possibly use a different train type.

Someone has defended him saying it's okay to exaggerate to make a point! Not when you've now produced a video and said things to the media that has seen the guard getting death threats like cat-in-the-bin woman!

Which is ridiculous, platform 2 at Guide Bridge is wide enough as it used to be an island platform before the closure of the Woodhead Line.

EDIT: And that Flyboy needs bringing down a notch or two

 

[TheBigD]

It's worth reading the last few pages. Seems to be a few holes appearing in his story in my opinion.

On the DS thread tonyaryan is the wheelchair users username.

 

[jon0844]

He's being incredibly selective on what he answers, and being careful to try and continue the victim. One thing I learned from watching a court case years ago is that if you know something, you say it and stick with it.

If you think someone lied, you say it. If you say 'I think he lied' then your evidence is torn to shreds. You've now admitted doubt.

Just recently, he's actually given a scenario where the guard is found to be right. That's not possible if everything he said was true! How can the guard be found to be right? That means they found evidence that he's hoping nobody can (as nobody else recorded it and CCTV - as he has been told - doesn't record sound and is probably time lapse anyway).

He's quite sneaky, but acts incredibly dumb.

I definitely think his wife is not happy about what he's done and is keeping well out of it. If he's not careful, they'll split up if this carries on for weeks/months/years and he'll blame it on the railway...

 

[142094]

Surprised that he hasn't signed a £thousands deal with a national newspaper to sell the story of his life, at the same time as being represented by Max Clifford. He'll get his 5 minutes of fame and the next idiot with a half-baked story trying to make some money will come out of the woodwork.

 

[jon0844]

He did mention Max Clifford, but then backtracked when he was heavily criticised. He said he was being sarcastic, forgetting the smileys or exclamation marks.

He seems to crave the attention, but obviously his family does not.

I can't begin to understand why he's deliberately kept himself away from people locally, and separated himself from the Asian community (his own statement) either.

Now, I know that I rant and rave a lot - wingeing on forums is something I'm quite good at - but, my God, please shoot me if I ever get like that! I mean I moaned about the FCC RPI, but I never mentioned his name anywhere or tried to get him sacked.

 

[142094]

He did mention Max Clifford, but then backtracked when he was heavily criticised. He said he was being sarcastic, forgetting the smileys or exclamation marks.

Ha! Haven't seen the rest of the posts on DS but that doesn't surprise me one bit. What an eejit. All he is doing is making it worse for disabled people.

 

[jon0844]

Max Clifford, for all his faults, would probably ask him even tougher questions before getting interested as he doesn't like (or seem to ever end up) looking the fool.

Maybe he DID speak to Max and was told that he wasn't interested. There is a public interest story here, when you let the Daily Mail run a video that is incredibly one-sided, but Max would quickly realise that he'd be torn to bits when the guy got more media attention.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Has anyone ever read the comments on the Daily Mail website - God save us. He has actually turned a situation potentially in his favour highly agaist himself - oh dear

 

[wanda]

I have trouble believing what I am reading here. Some of you seem to have sold yourself the idea that it is ok to deny a person service because they are annoying or irritating. You also appear to have decided, on the basis of a feeling, that the wheelchair user was a bad person who was in some way abusive - and a variety of other criticisms such as - his experience did not matter because he later went to the press? What is that about please? The conductor on the film did not know any of the later stuff would happen, so he cannot justify his awful rudeness (he turned his back, he loomed over the chair user, he jabbed his finger towards him, he refused to answer him etc). Don't you know that you should NEVER behave like that to anyone - are you badly brought up? There is absolutely no evidence the wheelchair user was rude or abusive to the conductor. He said . can you put a ramp down for me please. He said if you touch me that is an assault when the man loomed over him and jabbed a finger at him. The other man was also very rude - their body language was hugely threatening. Try being little, in pain and very vulnerable, and you would also be saying - touching me is an assault BEFORE the giant idiot in front of you unwittingly hurts you; just because they do not understand that a body with muscular dystrophy cannot take thethe sorts of casual physical issues that a healthy body can tolerate. If you don't understand this you need an empathy transplant For shame on you.
And under the DDA the train SHOULD have been available to this man - its really not at all relevant that there was another train 12 minutes later, or that taxis/buses are available. We live in a country with legislation to ensure disabled people get the same OR BETTER service than normal bodied people so WAKE UP people - it is all our jobs to make sure that people like this man can get on a train. If there is an H & S issue, then we deal with it, not by refusing service but by making the train safe. If we don't have a ramp we go get one - we don't run around for 4 minutes being rude and alternately ignoring a man in a wheelchair and then making statements that were rude and unhelpful.

You don't make the world safer and better by forming a little band of people making vague comments about how 'we' 'come across' these 'troublemakers' and how they make our jobs harder, so we can have sympathey with 2 men (not 1) who ON THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE SEEN acted like bigoted and intolerant, and personally I think, racist thugs. There isn't any other evidence - the wheelchair user saying 'touch me its an assault is NOT evidence of prior intention - it is a sad sign that people in wheelchairs regularly feel unsafe and have to make it clear that you could hurt them far more easily than you are likely to realise.

You don't make the railways a credible and safe employment environment by making nasty comments about a person who clearly was treated very badly indeed - you simply side with poor customer service, bullying and bigotry. Knowledge of how the job works does not excuse you - you are in the wrong.

The wheelchair user was a very small and weak person placed in an impossible position. He filmed the situation because no one would believe it if he simply reported it. In fact, even though he filmed it, lots of you STILL don't want to accept what very clearly did happen. Wise up - the 2 staff behaved badly. The wheelchair user not only caught them at it, he exposed it. Good for him. Bullies should not prosper. He has very nobly said he does not want the guard sacked. You should be recognising his genrosity.

Please note that last year 3 disabled people a week were physically attacked simply because some people did not like the look of them. The Muscular Dystrophy charity have reprted that they hear from sufferers being denied access to travel every day. Public transport staff need to do a lot better, not just because it is the decent and right thing to do, but because it is the law.

 

[ukrob]

Wow, I really don't know where to start with that post.

How about has it occurred to you know that we know a hell of a lot more about the subject than every Tom Dick and Harry on Digital Spy?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

1) the footage stops when someone approaches him;
2) we don't see what happens before him;
3) we here are all rail enthussiats, we know the ins and outs etc that passengres dont know, the guard was perfectly correct in his actions.
4) the guys showed himself up;
5) He breaks several rules by his actions;
6) he has no concrete proof he has ever alighted country bound from a 142 at guide Bridge station.

 

[jon0844]

@wanda

If what you said was 100% true, I'd agree. But the OP is being torn to shreds and has done nothing to protect the rights of wheelchair users. If anything, he's done major damage. I firmly believe that from what has been said in the last 12 hours, he's actually lying and is on a personal mission to get this one guard sacked - nothing more, nothing less.

And do you know how many people here have any form of disability or use a wheelchair? You seem to think it's 'them vs us'. Look around on this forum and see how many people are fighting for the rights for wheelchair users and people with disabilities. Please take time to look at my own posts, about disabled access, information screens, bridges, ramps, lifts etc.

In fact, you might just realise that people are working hard to improve the railway - and that's one of the reasons I'm here because I don't even WORK in the railway industry or go out spotting trains or anything like that.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Wow, I really don't know where to start with that post.

How about has it occurred to you know that we know a hell of a lot more about the subject than every Tom Dick and Harry on Digital Spy?

Top bloke I made a start ^^^^^^^^^^^
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wow, I really don't know where to start with that post.

How about has it occurred to you know that we know a hell of a lot more about the subject than every Tom Dick and Harry on Digital Spy?

My point 3 - half of us have jobs that make up the laws saying what the TM could and couldnt do

 

[mrcheek]

I have trouble believing what I am reading here. Some of you seem to have sold yourself the idea that it is ok to deny a person service because they are annoying or irritating. You also appear to have decided, on the basis of a feeling, that the wheelchair user was a bad person who was in some way abusive - and a variety of other criticisms such as - his experience did not matter because he later went to the press? What is that about please? The conductor on the film did not know any of the later stuff would happen, so he cannot justify his awful rudeness (he turned his back, he loomed over the chair user, he jabbed his finger towards him, he refused to answer him etc). Don't you know that you should NEVER behave like that to anyone - are you badly brought up? There is absolutely no evidence the wheelchair user was rude or abusive to the conductor. He said . can you put a ramp down for me please. He said if you touch me that is an assault when the man loomed over him and jabbed a finger at him. The other man was also very rude - their body language was hugely threatening. Try being little, in pain and very vulnerable, and you would also be saying - touching me is an assault BEFORE the giant idiot in front of you unwittingly hurts you; just because they do not understand that a body with muscular dystrophy cannot take thethe sorts of casual physical issues that a healthy body can tolerate. If you don't understand this you need an empathy transplant For shame on you.
And under the DDA the train SHOULD have been available to this man - its really not at all relevant that there was another train 12 minutes later, or that taxis/buses are available. We live in a country with legislation to ensure disabled people get the same OR BETTER service than normal bodied people so WAKE UP people - it is all our jobs to make sure that people like this man can get on a train. If there is an H & S issue, then we deal with it, not by refusing service but by making the train safe. If we don't have a ramp we go get one - we don't run around for 4 minutes being rude and alternately ignoring a man in a wheelchair and then making statements that were rude and unhelpful.

You don't make the world safer and better by forming a little band of people making vague comments about how 'we' 'come across' these 'troublemakers' and how they make our jobs harder, so we can have sympathey with 2 men (not 1) who ON THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE SEEN acted like bigoted and intolerant, and personally I think, racist thugs. There isn't any other evidence - the wheelchair user saying 'touch me its an assault is NOT evidence of prior intention - it is a sad sign that people in wheelchairs regularly feel unsafe and have to make it clear that you could hurt them far more easily than you are likely to realise.

You don't make the railways a credible and safe employment environment by making nasty comments about a person who clearly was treated very badly indeed - you simply side with poor customer service, bullying and bigotry. Knowledge of how the job works does not excuse you - you are in the wrong.

The wheelchair user was a very small and weak person placed in an impossible position. He filmed the situation because no one would believe it if he simply reported it. In fact, even though he filmed it, lots of you STILL don't want to accept what very clearly did happen. Wise up - the 2 staff behaved badly. The wheelchair user not only caught them at it, he exposed it. Good for him. Bullies should not prosper. He has very nobly said he does not want the guard sacked. You should be recognising his genrosity.

Please note that last year 3 disabled people a week were physically attacked simply because some people did not like the look of them. The Muscular Dystrophy charity have reprted that they hear from sufferers being denied access to travel every day. Public transport staff need to do a lot better, not just because it is the decent and right thing to do, but because it is the law.

There are many kinds of disability. One of them that I have is a thing called Aspergers Syndrome. Its basically a mild form of autism. It can cause a lot of problems. But overall, its not so bad. Sometimes its a good thing, because it means that in cases like this, I analyse things logically, looking at all the available evidence, and coming to a rational conclusion based on facts.

Aspergers sufferers call themselves "Aspies". We call other people "neurotypicals", meaning that your brain acts too much on things like emotion. In reality "neurotypical" is a form of abuse. What we're saying is, that youre an absolute idiot, who really should learn to read the situation, and take a broader look at all the evidence before coming to the defence of a lying scumbag who had the situation fully explained to him, and who continually abused a guard who in the end was forced to walk away as that was all that he could do in the circumstances.

The complainant is a troublemaker plain and simple. Which is also the reason he is using a false name.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

I notice on DS the number if times he repeatedly states he's used 'this train' before, etc. To be perfectly honest, when it comes to DMU's / EMU's it is only in the last few months I've come to appreciate the quantity of different classes there are in these and I've caught them thousands of times over the course of the last decade all over the country! Before very recently I couldn't have determined a 142 from a 150 from a 158, as to me it was just 'a train'. To be frank, I used to simply think of them as carriages, albeit with a cab and controls and a motor or engine stuck on them, because as long as they arrived when they were supposed to that was all that was of interest to me with them. Has he really verified that the six-digit 142xxx is the exact same one he's caught before? Would he have even taken notice? I know that until recently I would not have, and at most would only be able to state 'I have caught other similar-looking trains before'. Also, given that he has (obviously erroneously) believed he has used FTPE services at Guide Bridge (FTPE doesn't serve or stop at that station I understand), and the liveries of NR and FTPE are very different, then probably he doesn't have the knowledge of individual similar train classes to differentiate between them?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I notice on DS the number if times he repeatedly states he's used 'this train' before, etc. To be perfectly honest, when it comes to DMU's / EMU's it is only in the last few months I've come to appreciate the quantity of different classes there are in these and I've caught them thousands of times over the course of the last decade all over the country! Before very recently I couldn't have determined a 142 from a 150 from a 158, as to me it was just 'a train'. To be frank, I used to simply think of them as carriages, albeit with a cab and controls and a motor or engine stuck on them, because as long as they arrived when they were supposed to that was all that was of interest to me with them. Has he really verified that the six-digit 142xxx is the exact same one he's caught before? Would he have even taken notice? I know that until recently I would not have, and at most would only be able to state 'I have caught other similar-looking trains before'. Also, given that he has (obviously erroneously) believed he has used FTPE services at Guide Bridge (FTPE doesn't serve or stop at that station I understand), and the liveries of NR and FTPE are very different, then probably he doesn't have the knowledge of individual similar train classes to differentiate between them?

If he'd have said 'but I've used a Class 142 to guide Bridge before, why won't you let me on?' everything would be fine. But no. So thats why were here now wanda is a bit quiet .....

 

[jimrbrobinson]

I have trouble believing what I am reading here. Some of you seem to have sold yourself the idea that it is ok to deny a person service because they are annoying or irritating. You also appear to have decided, on the basis of a feeling, that the wheelchair user was a bad person who was in some way abusive - and a variety of other criticisms such as - his experience did not matter because he later went to the press? What is that about please? The conductor on the film did not know any of the later stuff would happen, so he cannot justify his awful rudeness (he turned his back, he loomed over the chair user, he jabbed his finger towards him, he refused to answer him etc). Don't you know that you should NEVER behave like that to anyone - are you badly brought up? There is absolutely no evidence the wheelchair user was rude or abusive to the conductor. He said . can you put a ramp down for me please. He said if you touch me that is an assault when the man loomed over him and jabbed a finger at him. The other man was also very rude - their body language was hugely threatening. Try being little, in pain and very vulnerable, and you would also be saying - touching me is an assault BEFORE the giant idiot in front of you unwittingly hurts you; just because they do not understand that a body with muscular dystrophy cannot take thethe sorts of casual physical issues that a healthy body can tolerate. If you don't understand this you need an empathy transplant For shame on you.
And under the DDA the train SHOULD have been available to this man - its really not at all relevant that there was another train 12 minutes later, or that taxis/buses are available. We live in a country with legislation to ensure disabled people get the same OR BETTER service than normal bodied people so WAKE UP people - it is all our jobs to make sure that people like this man can get on a train. If there is an H & S issue, then we deal with it, not by refusing service but by making the train safe. If we don't have a ramp we go get one - we don't run around for 4 minutes being rude and alternately ignoring a man in a wheelchair and then making statements that were rude and unhelpful.

You don't make the world safer and better by forming a little band of people making vague comments about how 'we' 'come across' these 'troublemakers' and how they make our jobs harder, so we can have sympathey with 2 men (not 1) who ON THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE SEEN acted like bigoted and intolerant, and personally I think, racist thugs. There isn't any other evidence - the wheelchair user saying 'touch me its an assault is NOT evidence of prior intention - it is a sad sign that people in wheelchairs regularly feel unsafe and have to make it clear that you could hurt them far more easily than you are likely to realise.

You don't make the railways a credible and safe employment environment by making nasty comments about a person who clearly was treated very badly indeed - you simply side with poor customer service, bullying and bigotry. Knowledge of how the job works does not excuse you - you are in the wrong.

The wheelchair user was a very small and weak person placed in an impossible position. He filmed the situation because no one would believe it if he simply reported it. In fact, even though he filmed it, lots of you STILL don't want to accept what very clearly did happen. Wise up - the 2 staff behaved badly. The wheelchair user not only caught them at it, he exposed it. Good for him. Bullies should not prosper. He has very nobly said he does not want the guard sacked. You should be recognising his genrosity.

Please note that last year 3 disabled people a week were physically attacked simply because some people did not like the look of them. The Muscular Dystrophy charity have reprted that they hear from sufferers being denied access to travel every day. Public transport staff need to do a lot better, not just because it is the decent and right thing to do, but because it is the law.

Wanda: Stop banging the DDA drum, it is a moot point and doesn't apply to the class of train involved due to its age. There is a lead-in time for implementation of the DDA to take account of this, and complete compliance is required by 2020. Increasingly, more and more rolling stock is being either replaced with newer stock or existing stock being refurbished and in some cases significantly re-engineered to steadily increase compliance and improve facilities and access for people with disabilities. That IS the requirement of the DDA which Northern, and every other Train Operating Company, ARE compying with. An alternative suitably equipped train was available 20 minutes later, which is also in compliance with the requirements of the DDA.

 

[Lampshade]

I notice on DS the number if times he repeatedly states he's used 'this train' before, etc.

That's what I've noticed, 'this train' can often be a synonym for 'this service', especially as 142s don't always work the Rose Hill services.

 

[jon0844]

I'm a little worried about the cross-posting of things from one forum to another, as that will get things very confusing when people reply (as did happen, yet then suddenly two people deleted their comment?) and the poster doesn't see the response or get the chance to reply.

 

[reb0118]

@wanda

If what you said was 100% true, I'd agree. But the OP is being torn to shreds and has done nothing to protect the rights of wheelchair users. If anything, he's done major damage. I firmly believe that from what has been said in the last 12 hours, he's actually lying and is on a personal mission to get this one guard sacked - nothing more, nothing less.

And do you know how many people here have any form of disability or use a wheelchair? You seem to think it's 'them vs us'. Look around on this forum and see how many people are fighting for the rights for wheelchair users and people with disabilities. Please take time to look at my own posts, about disabled access, information screens, bridges, ramps, lifts etc.

In fact, you might just realise that people are working hard to improve the railway - and that's one of the reasons I'm here because I don't even WORK in the railway industry or go out spotting trains or anything like that.

Well said, a fair & balanced response.

 

[jon0844]

Well, despite asking for people not to cross-post (and link instead), my nemesis is now quoting bits of what I've said on there, in such a way as to change the meaning and make it sound threatening.

It's such a shame that people are just getting such entertainment value out of a very serious incident.

I may well see the guard speak later and think 'oh my god, he is a nasty bit of work after all' but until I can see what he has to say, we're all supposed to believe the story from someone who keeps changing it, then acting dumb to gain sympathy. And, it certainly is working still for some people who seem to have become his unofficial fanclub.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Well, despite asking for people not to cross-post (and link instead), my nemesis is now quoting bits of what I've said on there, in such a way as to change the meaning and make it sound threatening.

Is he? Who are you on DS, might read through it later. If I have a spare 14 hours