Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

[First class]

Turns out that this 'wheelchair' user was carrying his young child on his lap in the wheelchair and wanted to go up the ramp with the child in the wheelchair with him. (he says this in Youtube comments).

If that is the case, then I would certainly decline him permission. I would not reasonably deem it safe to have go up a fairly steep ramp with a child.

When he speaks foreign, he is saying 'get the child of my lap' to his mrs.

Travel assistance
If you would like assistance when making a journey, such as help getting on or off a train, or ramps for a wheelchair, please contact the Train Company that manages the station you are starting your journey from. Please try and give a minimum of 24 hours notice before your journey as this will allow time for any special arrangements to be made. If this is not possible the Train Companies will still do their best to help, but cannot guarantee to provide their normal level of service.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Jonmorris0844 - your hypothesis would certainly seem to work. I did notice when reading the thread that he only answered certain questions, and even then some of the answers were quite vague. He didn't help himself by screaming 'Don't touch me that's assault'.

 

[cuccir]

Both guard and wheelchair user come off badly in my view. I've worked in customer facing jobs and you have to accept that some people will make demands which seem unreasonable, or might not understand/accept the constraints which prevent you providing a full service to them. Yes its frustrating but every job has its frustrations.If a customer can't accept your reasons, just repeat it to them. Acting like a child is never defensible. EQUALLY the wheelchair user seems extremely aggressive and unwilling to accept any form of explanation. the whole act of filming the incident and immediately going to the press is exploitative of the situation.

Of course, fundamentally, we don't know what's gone on before the filming. As such all comments, from Daily Mail reading public through to experience rail staff come from a point of equal ignorance. But we live in world with nice easy 'Postreply' buttons on public forums

Dumb question I know but why can't the wheelchair user and the guard both talk to each other, explain their positions in reasonable terms, and, if necessary, record the incident and arrange alternative transport plans for the user? Isn't that what sane/civilised people do?

 

[Greenback]

Both guard and wheelchair user come off badly in my view. I've worked in customer facing jobs and you have to accept that some people will make demands which seem unreasonable, or might not understand/accept the constraints which prevent you providing a full service to them. Yes its frustrating but every job has its frustrations.If a customer can't accept your reasons, just repeat it to them. Acting like a child is never defensible. EQUALLY the wheelchair user seems extremely aggressive and unwilling to accept any form of explanation. the whole act of filming the incident and immediately going to the press is exploitative of the situation.

Of course, fundamentally, we don't know what's gone on before the filming. As such all comments, from Daily Mail reading public through to experience rail staff come from a point of equal ignorance. But we live in world with nice easy 'Postreply' buttons on public forums

Dumb question I know but why can't the wheelchair user and the guard both talk to each other, explain their positions in reasonable terms, and, if necessary, record the incident and arrange alternative transport plans for the user? Isn't that what sane/civilised people do?

The point here is that no one knows what happened before the filming began. We also have a case where one person has gone down the 'trial by media' route without the other side having any say at all.

Any organisation will apologise to a customer before investigating once the media is involved. It simply looks better if they are seen to be genuinely concerned and apologised rather than being seen as trying to stage a cover up or employ delaying tactics by stating they are simply launching an investigation.

There are many inconsistencies in the 'victim's' story. Their first DS post seems a long way from what has emerged from them during the resulting thread.

For what it's worth, although there is no direct evidence, I believe it mor elikely that the guard had explained several times why the wheelchair could not be accommodated on that service, had been argued with and possibly abused, and had followed their training in conflict avoidance and simply walked away.

 

[Geezertronic]

Both guard and wheelchair user come off badly in my view.

I've just read the whole of the DS thread and would have to concur...

 

[Ferret]

The point here is that no one knows what happened before the filming began. We also have a case where one person has gone down the 'trial by media' route without the other side having any say at all.

Any organisation will apologise to a customer before investigating once the media is involved. It simply looks better if they are seen to be genuinely concerned and apologised rather than being seen as trying to stage a cover up or employ delaying tactics by stating they are simply launching an investigation.

There are many inconsistencies in the 'victim's' story. Their first DS post seems a long way from what has emerged from them during the resulting thread.

For what it's worth, although there is no direct evidence, I believe it mor elikely that the guard had explained several times why the wheelchair could not be accommodated on that service, had been argued with and possibly abused, and had followed their training in conflict avoidance and simply walked away.

I find myself agreeing with almost every word of that. All that remains to be seen is whether the OP on Digital Spy ends up with a whole load of egg on his face!

 

[atomicdanny]

I think that there is some hope for the daily mail readers after all (well at least one!) on that article, although the comments I see on there are from people who like to blame the railways for everything. If they sacked the staff for just this then wouldn't that be the same as sacking retail staff not dealing with a complain properly? Which happens everywhere, even then sacking people is too extreme! (but then customers expect staff to jump over hoops for people and work 24/7 without breaks...!)

As for the video, I agree that there seems to be a bit of missing information and it seems very one sided to me, I'm not defending the guard more than the person in the wheel chair, but I just don't jump to conclusions like those that comment or work for the Daily Mail!

THE TRAIN WAS NOT SUITABLE!!!

If the story is to be told, tell it all. There was a suitable train 12 minutes later and this man was told he should get that one instead.

Then he started filming and shouting his mouth off, along with the hangers on he had with him.

It appears that since the bus driver was sacked a few months ago, certain groups are travelling around looking for poor, hardworking folk to terrorise for not running around like servants at their every request. We must be mad!

Get the next train. Don't ruin peoples lives by terrorising them. What do you want him to do, endanger your life and the rest of the passengers lives by allowing your wheelchair to block the isles?

No other country bows down to everyone like we seem to, we need to remember that.

- Charley Boy, Manchester, 25/8/2010 10:36

 

[Lampshade]

I find myself agreeing with almost every word of that. All that remains to be seen is whether the OP on Digital Spy ends up with a whole load of egg on his face!

This post annoyed me slightly:

Another thing that might be relevant. Last week I used a Transpennnine train from the same station coming to Guide Bridge. Same route. It was during a peak period and the train was near to being packed. The place where the disabled wheelchairs go had a twin-buggy with twins in it and a further two buggies. The twin-buggy was in my way getting into the train. The platform staff (this time not a guard) put the ramp down for me and asked the people with the twins to fold the buggy and move so I could get in. They got upset and at first would not move. They did afterwards but were hurling abuse at the man. He was ignoring them. Once I was in he put the ramp away and told them you can put the buggy out now. They continued to abuse him with foul language. He then said he was terminating the service because of these two people and everyone shound disembark the train. But there was another member of staff behind him, and he pulled him out and let the train depart.

Now I have wrote about this because this person took abuse for me from someone else when he could have just walked away and said he cant do this. But he still got me in. He did his job while being abused. I felt sorry and admiration for him. My wife was apologising to him for getting him abused.

Guard from Saturday evening was just ignorant and unresponsive. A world apart from the other guy.

TPE do not stop at Guide Bridge, haven't done since 2004/2005, since the days of ATN. Also, no Guard worth his salt would terminate a train and risk a PPM failure just because of abusive passengers, that's why we have the BTP.

 

[142094]

If it in fact turns out to be the case that he was advised to get the later train due to a problem with the 142s ramp at Guide Bridge, and then started to argue with the staff, I hope he is banned from all Northern services.

 

[jon0844]

He may not be banned, but he's going to find a lot more discrimination in the future - and it won't be because of him being in a wheelchair.

 

[Lampshade]

That thread on DS is heading into oblivion :roll:

 

[mrcheek]

I believe it mor elikely that the guard had explained several times why the wheelchair could not be accommodated on that service, had been argued with and possibly abused, and had followed their training in conflict avoidance and simply walked away.

This is a very intelligent point that many have missed. So many people have criticised the guard for walking away, yet walking away was exactly the right thing to do, since the lying scum in the wheelchair was accusing him of assault.

yes, lying scum. I dont have to be fair and impartial.....

 

[Greenback]

A guard cannot continue going over and over the same thing. Having been in this position in other roles, there comes a point when you have to give up and walk away. When that point is, of course, differs from case to case.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it is was jonmorris on the DS thread made an interesting point in that if Northern Rail were to sack the guard as a scapegoat or sop to the press, what would the Union's response be? (Assuming of course he is a member of a Union).

 

[northwichcat]

That thread on DS is heading into oblivion :roll:

If anything it's been made worse by people who know about the railways posting as it's turned in to a 'would it be cost effective for Northern to sublease from TPE' thread now because of someone likely thinking a 323 was TPE operated.

 

[Darandio]

This is a very intelligent point that many have missed. So many people have criticised the guard for walking away, yet walking away was exactly the right thing to do, since the lying scum in the wheelchair was accusing him of assault.

yes, lying scum. I dont have to be fair and impartial.....

I agree entirely, especially the last part.

No matter what the facts are of what happened before the footage was shown, the guy went on the DS forums for advice and completely ignored the advice he was given which was to hang fire and complain to the TOC first and foremost. Reading the forum, he gave them a matter of hours, on a weekend none the less before deciding to go straight to the press in the hope of making a quick buck. For that reason, and to even make it possible that a guy could lose his job puts him in the "scum" bracket.

He even said that he had rang the helpline and been put on hold before slamming the phone down in disgust, again I believe at the weekend, dont we all! I suppose he is different though, with an idea that he is now a national celebrity that is too good to queue on the phone like the rest of us.

 

[Lampshade]

Looks like he's gone international with it: http://www.bakchich.info/Northern-Rail-gare-aux-handicapes,11691.html

 

[yorkie]

Both guard and wheelchair user come off badly in my view. I've worked in customer facing jobs and you have to accept that some people will make demands which seem unreasonable, or might not understand/accept the constraints which prevent you providing a full service to them. Yes its frustrating but every job has its frustrations.If a customer can't accept your reasons, just repeat it to them. Acting like a child is never defensible. EQUALLY the wheelchair user seems extremely aggressive and unwilling to accept any form of explanation. the whole act of filming the incident and immediately going to the press is exploitative of the situation.

I totally agree.

Unfortunately the staff member at 02:29 who said it is "against the law to take photos" did himself no favours whatsoever, as that is made up. It appears that he is using this law that he has invented as justification for refusing the ramp. A professional should politely explain the reasons that a ramp cannot be provided for that type of train, and inform the customer what they should do to make alternative arrangements (e.g. contact the customer services desk).

I don't like the attitude of the person who made the video, but you have to admit the staff did themselves no favours, made themselves look stupid and left Northern Rail with no choice but to take action against this extremely unprofessional behaviour.

In Northern's defence, not many guards are like that, most are helpful.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Once again, people are making conclusions based only on what they saw in that video. A huge amount of rather important footage is missing - namely the lead up to this situation.

 

[Lampshade]

Once again, people are making conclusions based only on what they saw in that video. A huge amount of rather important footage is missing - namely the lead up to this situation.

People on YouTube claiming to be witnesses are saying the Guard did in fact explain the circumstances to begin with, although comments like those on YT should be taken with a quarry of salt.

Still, there is only four minutes of video after he'd supposedly been there ten minutes, a lot can happen in six minutes.

 

[mrcheek]

Unfortunately the staff member at 02:29 who said it is "against the law to take photos" did himself no favours whatsoever, as that is made up.

Technically, since the filming was being made with the intention of making a fraudulent and libellous complaint against the guard, the act of filming was in itself an unlawful act....

 

[scotsman]

I'm apalled by the assault accusation, it is completely inexcusable and reminds me slightly of a chapter of a book by a Glasgow bus driver called "bowling for compo" My advice to any staff who're scared of "don't touch me - that's assault" is keep your arms behind your back - they'll find it hard to sustain any accusation if you do that.

 

[mrcheek]

I'm apalled by the assault accusation, it is completely inexcusable and reminds me slightly of a chapter of a book by a Glasgow bus driver called "bowling for compo" My advice to any staff who're scared of "don't touch me - that's assault" is keep your arms behind your back - they'll find it hard to sustain any accusation if you do that.

Anybody who has worked in a security related role has heard the "Dont touch me, thats assault" line a thousand times. One of these days when someone says it Im gonna snap, smash somebody right in the face and say "No, THATS assault...."

But seriously, the bottom line is that anybody who ever uses that line is unquestionably just looking for trouble. If the lying scum in the wheelchair had done nothing else, that one line destroys any credibility he might have had.

 

[jimrbrobinson]

I've done some checking today with some CCTV office people regarding this whole filming thing. There is no law to stop any person filming or photographing in any public place as long as it is for personal leisure. Technically, the station is private property to which the public are granted conditional access, and therefore if asked to stop filming / photographing within the confines of the station or its property, you have to comply by law. However, once the footage was uploaded onto YouTube, and thereby placed into the public domain an offence is committed if this was done without the express consent of any clearly and easily identifiable person shown. This is why CCTV is permitted as it is not made freely and publicly available and in cases where CCTV footage IS placed into the public domain (such as TV, etc.) the consent must have been obtained from all identifiable persons shown therein, or they must be pixellated, etc to prevent their unauthorised recognisation. The exception to this is authorised legal agencies CAN release identifiable footage of a suspect wanted in connection with a criminal offence, but non-involved bystanders, etc. must be disguised unless they have given consent to be shown. Basically, if in the end it should be found that the guard and staff were not in the wrong (bearing in mind we only know what has been filmed and unlawfully released into the public domain) then where would be grounds for legal action against the filmer both by Northern Rail and individually by the staff involved. Note however, that the filmer would also be technically liable for the further dissemination of the footage by other agencies (i.e. news media) because their backs are covered legally by him having already placed the material in the public domain before they copied and repeatedly redistributed it. This is as told to me by a professional manager in charge of a CCTV monitoring office.

 

[Geezertronic]

I still cannot understand why he couldn't have caught the train 12 minutes later and felt the need to leave the station when he was told the police were on their way. And I don't buy into the excuse that he was "frightened" or "intimidated" because that's not how he comes across in his video.

And I don't buy into the excuse that the reason he involved the media was for "awareness" either, he comes across as someone who is just after his 15 minutes of fame and maybe a few quid in compo while he is at it. Whilst the staff didn't cover themselves in glory, nor did this man either

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I still cannot understand why he couldn't have caught the train 12 minutes later and felt the need to leave the station when he was told the police were on their way. And I don't buy into the excuse that he was "frightened" or "intimidated" because that's not how he comes across in his video.

And I don't buy into the excuse that the reason he involved the media was for "awareness" either, he comes across as someone who is just after his 15 minutes of fame and maybe a few quid in compo while he is at it. Whilst the staff didn't cover themselves in glory, nor did this man either

If this thing does end up in court etc re: compensation, Northern will just get a high up lawyer to throw this whole thing out of court. Hopefully. Please. The Guard being suspended is bull though

 

[jon0844]

I don't believe the guy's story, but I will say in his defence that this story is spreading without his knowledge. It's a big public interest story (sadly, a lot of the media will not want to allow the truth to come out as it will make them look silly) but it's being spread around, syndicated or simply stolen and re-written by others. That's what happens - and it's called churnalism. It fills column inches or creates new content on websites.

I guess he never realised or thought about the consequences of his quick attempt to sell a story to the media (not necessarily literally, I don't know if he's received any money) and the consequences of being found to have been economical with the truth. Also, I doubt he really did call Northern to complain, but had to say so when he was asked why he went straight to the media.

He's been back on the DS site, but hasn't posted. Now, he may have loads of posts to get through but I also think he's best off keeping quiet now. Everything he says just makes it worse.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

He's been back on the DS site, but hasn't posted. Now, he may have loads of posts to get through but I also think he's best off keeping quiet now. Everything he says just makes it worse.

Just after I joined as well. Bummer.

 

[Lampshade]

What annoys me slightly is I was at Piccadilly Station not ten minutes before this happened, if only I'd stuck around.

 

[Kernowfem]

Once again, it appears train staff have been at the arse end of a battering for not pampering to certain whims. You all know my feelings on this, and the gentleman for doing the right thing and walking away. Frankly i doubt i would have held my tongue.
Clearly, not the whole story!!!