Wheel Flats On Wagons

[RichmondCommu]

G'day,

I'm curious to know how wheel flats on wagons are detected. I occasionally see Freightliner wagons at Etches Park in Derby for wheel turning so obviously some kind of method of detection is being employed.

I look forward to your replies.

Regards,

Richmond Commuter.

 

[GB]

Combination of....

Inspections at terminals/yards
Reports from staff during a trains journey
Wheel Impact Load Detection equipment on the line side

Of course wheel sets being in the shop doesn't necessarily mean they have wheel flats....they may just be in for re profiling or as part of its PPM cycle.

 

[Cab2Cab]

G'day,

I'm curious to know how wheel flats on wagons are detected. I occasionally see Freightliner wagons at Etches Park in Derby for wheel turning so obviously some kind of method of detection is being employed.

I look forward to your replies.

Regards,

Richmond Commuter.

Hi,

If you was just after knowing about freight wagons flats then GB man has summed it up well, Handbrakes can be a issue as well.

On other rail vehicles their is a WSP probe that detects wheel slide which blows the brake off on the locked axle and then back on in a short space of time to prevent dragging a wheelset but this needs a electrical supply which is not available on freight wagons.

On a freight wagon you have got a weigh load valve and this detects the weight in the wagon to allow how much pressure is needed to assist with the braking capacity of the train. If the valve is damaged or not working the brake pressure may clamp the wheel to quickly thus causing maybe a wheel flat.

On the recent railways programs 'keeping britain on track' the virgin train manager went lineside to check the wheelset was turning, the driver on these mod con trains must have indication/general fault light to flag up this problem because he indicated to him the wheelset with the problem, unless it was reported by lineside staff.

Cheers

 

[RichmondCommu]

Hi,

If you was just after knowing about freight wagons flats then GB man has summed it up well, Handbrakes can be a issue as well.

On other rail vehicles their is a WSP probe that detects wheel slide which blows the brake off on the locked axle and then back on in a short space of time to prevent dragging a wheelset but this needs a electrical supply which is not available on freight wagons.

On a freight wagon you have got a weigh load valve and this detects the weight in the wagon to allow how much pressure is needed to assist with the braking capacity of the train. If the valve is damaged or not working the brake pressure may clamp the wheel to quickly thus causing maybe a wheel flat.

On the recent railways programs 'keeping britain on track' the virgin train manager went lineside to check the wheelset was turning, the driver on these mod con trains must have indication/general fault light to flag up this problem because he indicated to him the wheelset with the problem, unless it was reported by lineside staff.

Cheers

Thanks to both of you for your replies, some really interesting staff there. I did wonder about the input of lineside staff but with the decline of manual signal boxes on many routes they are now surely few and far between.

In terms of the train crew, what are the tell tale signs of a wheel flat on a freight train?

 

[Cab2Cab]

Thanks to both of you for your replies, some really interesting staff there. I did wonder about the input of lineside staff but with the decline of manual signal boxes on many routes they are now surely few and far between.

In terms of the train crew, what are the tell tale signs of a wheel flat on a freight train?

Hi,

If your sat one end of a 'coach' above the bogies you can sometimes feel the flat on your journey at slow/slower speeds, just basically a thud now and again that alters with the speed of the train. Just tell the TM who should note the 'coach' details (end, direction of travel). It will be checked by maintenance staff when on depot.


When passing freight trains pass you can hear the flats come and go past you, this again will be picked up on maintenance normally PPM, if the flat is a bad one (what do you class as a bad one?) just make a call to the signaller to get train stopped and checked, the driver will not know on a freight train due engine noise and other things, like GB quoted the lineside equipment will/should pick it up.

.....and of course the eyes and ears of any rail staff on the network,

Cheers

 

[Eng274]

Generally the 'length' of the flat along its circumference is the key factor in determining how bad it is, certainly on MU wheel sets circa 30mm in length or greater would necessitate wheel turning to rectify.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Hi,

If your sat one end of a 'coach' above the bogies you can sometimes feel the flat on your journey at slow/slower speeds, just basically a thud now and again that alters with the speed of the train. Just tell the TM who should note the 'coach' details (end, direction of travel). It will be checked by maintenance staff when on depot.

When passing freight trains pass you can hear the flats come and go past you, this again will be picked up on maintenance normally PPM, if the flat is a bad one (what do you class as a bad one?) just make a call to the signaller to get train stopped and checked, the driver will not know on a freight train due engine noise and other things, like GB quoted the lineside equipment will/should pick it up.

Cheers

Oh I agree that in terms of passenger trains feedback from customers and indeed the TM will quickly identify wheel flats. However, I'd assumed that audio detection of wheel flats on wagons would be harder for the reasons that you have just described. My mum lives very close to the railway in Duffield and when freight trains run past you often hear the thud of a wheel flat. Of course I have no way of informing DBS / Freightliner!

 

[Cab2Cab]

Oh I agree that in terms of passenger trains feedback from customers and indeed the TM will quickly identify wheel flats. However, I'd assumed that audio detection of wheel flats on wagons would be harder for the reasons that you have just described. My mum lives very close to the railway in Duffield and when freight trains run past you often hear the thud of a wheel flat. Of course I have no way of informing DBS / Freightliner!

Yes, it comes down to that question ' what do you class as a bad flat, small thud, big thud or wagon jumping up and down' this is the downside of the railway with all the signal boxes being abolished..........these were the eyes and ears of the railway but the lineside equipment nowdays could be far superior than times past.

Duffield great place to live, i love the A6 it's one of my favourite roads, i always take this road instead of the A38.

Cheers

 

[TMLB UK]

In the passenger side of things we get wheelchex reports from network rail's wheel impact load detectors along the network. It will detail what direction the train was going then tells us which axle and wheel on the train was affected.

An example but make believe would be. up fast hitchin axle 27 left. A pretty graph of the impact detected is also attached.

It's then left up to the maintenance team to work out which direction the train was going which car relates to axle 27 and then go and check for wheel damage. 30-40mm flats are the limit I think.

 

[swt_passenger]

...However, I'd assumed that audio detection of wheel flats on wagons would be harder for the reasons that you have just described.

Siemens/SWT use an audio system - 'RailBAM' - to detect incipient wheel bearing failures, there's a couple of installations around the SWT network, the first one was put in at Swaythling.

http://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/news/2012/e_inno_1233_1.htm

I should have thought detecting flats by similar audio means would be quite straightforward in comparison to finding bearing related noise...

 

[notabasher]

Oh I agree that in terms of passenger trains feedback from customers and indeed the TM will quickly identify wheel flats. However, I'd assumed that audio detection of wheel flats on wagons would be harder for the reasons that you have just described. My mum lives very close to the railway in Duffield and when freight trains run past you often hear the thud of a wheel flat. Of course I have no way of informing DBS / Freightliner!

Most coal trains I hear have multiple flats thumping away which is especially noticeable late at night.