Whats wrong with 'plastic'?

[Tom C]

think many of the above arguments are irrelevant - members of this forum (as a generalisation) like 'old' trains which offer more excitement (heads out, slamming doors, clag thrash and all the rest) rather than a genuinely improved travelling experience.

The majority of passengers think the new plastic is an improvement over older trains - just look at passenger satisfaction surveys. With my engineers hat on I must agree, lower NVH, controlled environment, improved performance etc are a real benefit and sentiment MUST not be allowed to impede progress.

I know there are reliability issues; robust engineering solutions to these must be found. Station dwell times are also extended but this is 2005 - ALL risks to passengers must be minimised otherwise the ambulance chasers will be smiling.

DO NOT CONFUSE REAL PROGRESS WITH ENTHUSIAST SENTIMENT

How can appalling reliability and cheap interiors on flagship routes be "irrelevant"

The WCML is one (if not THE) flagship route in this country and it is run by trains that sometimes cannot get through the day without failing. Not only that but the interiors are just not acceptable for the fares that people have to pay if they cannot book their trip a month (at least) in advance!.

Real progress is when we get trains that are capable of running an effective service which will be attractive to the public so it is used again and again and from various passenger groups (as you mention!) this is certainly not the case especially from commuters who have had to pay through the nose and in the mouth for a season ticket. Virgin trains have one of the worse records for Customer satisfaction which admittedly is not just down to the introduction of new trains, however this is not to say that complaints are rare (far from it!)

I do wish people would stop and listen before dismissing peoples opinions as enthusiastic bum fluff. I do want the replacements for Mk1 stock to come but they have to be decent replacements which have been thoroughly tested and are known to be able to cope with the job infront of it and also to have passenger accommodation that has been fitted with thought rather than an after thought!. Just because people are don't fall madly in love with anything that runs on their local line does not make their opinion any less worthy nor does it mean that you cannot move on!. It simply means that I care enough about the Railways to actually have the courage to front my opinions instead of following many enthusiasts views like a lost sheep.

I do not however think that replacing perfectlly useable Mk3 coaches which are far from life expired or unsafe, with EMU's, with numerous faults which are simply a step down and are never going to be as reliable as the perfectly useable trains they replaced is acceptable nor will I ever.

 

[Lewisham2221]

How can appalling reliability and cheap interiors on flagship routes be "irrelevant"

The WCML is one (if not THE) flagship route in this country and it is run by trains that sometimes cannot get through the day without failing. Not only that but the interiors are just not acceptable for the fares that people have to pay if they cannot book their trip a month (at least) in advance!
...
I do not however think that replacing perfectlly useable Mk3 coaches which are far from life expired or unsafe, with EMU's, with numerous faults which are simply a step down and are never going to be as reliable as the perfectly useable trains they replaced is acceptable nor will I ever.

(snipped in the middle to get all the WCML bit together)

As I'm sure you agree with, the Loco's and Mk3's needed replacing to take the benefit of the WCML upgrade. Now, before anybody starts moaning that it's only a 15mph increase etc, well at least it IS an increase and as a result journy times have gone down. Not to mention that the original plans were for an even faster line. I will admit that Pendolino's are far from being decent trains. Whilst I have no problem with Voyagers (except for the beeping which can get annoying after while), the Pendolino's are cramped, dingy and with appaling (and in cases non-existant) window views, as well as poor reliability. However, if they were running at 140mph things might be a bit more bearable, but you can't blame the train for the infrastructure upgrades not being good enough. As for fares, well that can't be blamed entirely on the train either.

Real progress is when we get trains that are capable of running an effective service which will be attractive to the public so it is used again and again and from various passenger groups (as you mention!) this is certainly not the case especially from commuters who have had to pay through the nose and in the mouth for a season ticket. Virgin trains have one of the worse records for Customer satisfaction which admittedly is not just down to the introduction of new trains, however this is not to say that complaints are rare (far from it!)

Not going to argue this point for too long, because you are never going to have a service that is attractive to everybody and people are constantly going to come up examples of people not liking the service.

As you don't make it clear whether you are talking about VWC, VXC or the pair of them here, I will assume that you are talking as the company on a whole. Obviously, this includes XC, who, IMO, whilst many people knock them for various reasons, do a bloody good job of what they do in the circumstances. Whilst Voyagers are prone to failures from time to time, they seem pretty reliable and most delays are caused by things outside the control of the train or indeed the company.

I do wish people would stop and listen before dismissing peoples opinions as enthusiastic bum fluff. I do want the replacements for Mk1 stock to come but they have to be decent replacements which have been thoroughly tested and are known to be able to cope with the job infront of it and also to have passenger accommodation that has been fitted with thought rather than an after thought!. Just because people are don't fall madly in love with anything that runs on their local line does not make their opinion any less worthy nor does it mean that you cannot move on!. It simply means that I care enough about the Railways to actually have the courage to front my opinions instead of following many enthusiasts views like a lost sheep.

Indeed, I also wish that people would show respect for each others opinions before sarcasticly labelling us as the 'I Love New Trains Brigade' and branded us as argumentitive, anti-enthusiast, troublemakers (not aimed at you Tom but the ideal point to bring that up).

It is also nice to see you at least accepting that the Mk1 stock does need replacing, but just that the replacements aren't necessarily ideal.

IIRC the 458's were recently one of the (or was it actually THE) best train on SWT. Surely this should cut a bit of slack for the reliability of other stock and give them the time to have things corrected. As for passenger accomodation, that's just down to personal opinion really.

 

[yorkie]

As I'm sure you agree with, the Loco's and Mk3's needed replacing to take the benefit of the WCML upgrade. Now, before anybody starts moaning that it's only a 15mph increase etc, well at least it IS an increase and as a result journy times have gone down. Not to mention that the original plans were for an even faster line.

But can you honestly say the upgrade was worth the cost?

I will admit that Pendolino's are far from being decent trains. Whilst I have no problem with Voyagers (except for the beeping which can get annoying after while), the Pendolino's are cramped, dingy and with appaling (and in cases non-existant) window views, as well as poor reliability. However, if they were running at 140mph things might be a bit more bearable, but you can't blame the train for the infrastructure upgrades not being good enough.

I have various issues with Voyagers, but let's not go there!

As for fares, well that can't be blamed entirely on the train either.

Really? I once emailed Virgin about their huge price increases[1] a while ago and their reason for the price increase was the introduction of new trains!

And, indeed you certainly can blame the new trains: just look at the economics.
1. Increased leasing charges
2. Massively increased track access charges (due to the trains being more track damaging AND due to twice as many trains running where 1 train ran before meaning 2 paths are used instead of 1)
3. Massively increased staffing costs (More drivers, more conductors, more shop staff even on double voyagers where they have to open 2 shops)
4. Lower overall capacity on some routes even though the number of trains has been increased, this applies to my route via York (2+7 HST has more capacity than a a 4 car and 5 car Voyagers).

The CrossCountry franchise alone now requires a huge subsidy. (I'm not sure of up-to-date figures, but it's far in excess of the whole of InterCity in BR days).

IIRC the 458's were recently one of the (or was it actually THE) best train on SWT.

They were until recently terribly unreliable, and the corridor connections are unusable due to safety concerns. I don't think I've heard anyone call them SWT's best trains.

The problem with this debate is that those who claim the new trains are good are ingoring the financial issues. The argument seems to be that new trains look/feel nice. But how can we justify the huge cost?

If the 'old trains are bad' argument was applied to the Lymington line, well quite simply it is not financially viable for a Desiro to operate the line so the line would probably have closed. The only way the line could survive was for an efficient Mk1 Slam Door unit to operate the service.

Unfortunately the huge costs of the power upgrade, the cost of the new trains and the increased running costs (and other factors), now mean that the rail industry is suffering a very serious funding crisis and the Government IS trying to CLOSE lines and CUT services.

[1] I expressed disappointment at the extortionate cost of a YRK-BHM Saver, and also the price of even a Virgin Value to Birmingham (I would get no railcard discount), a Virgin Value 14 was increased to the same price as a combination of CDRs (YRK-SHF, SHF-DBY, DBY-BHM), I pointed out that, for me, travelling on Saturdays for a day trip with a YP, the VV may as well not exist, I also pointed out that Virgin would be losing out as GNER, MML, CT, Northern would get their cut of the CDRs. They totally ducked/ignored all the issues and simply said that the prices were increased due to their nice new Voyager trains

 

[ChrisM]

In simple terms (my opinion) new trains were needed and the cost was always going to be high but that's because customers want more from air con to wi-fi people expect more from new trains.

I prefer the newer trains and for my needs they are better,try getting 4 kids,a pushchair and a few bags or a disabled person or even changing a nappy on a slammer or crap 442.

God i remember when i was a kid having to shout to the driver to move up the platform when i lived at portchester because a six car 205/207 (i think) couldn't fit on the platform cause wouldn't happen nowadays because of H&S.

If the 'old trains are bad' argument was applied to the Lymington line, well quite simply it is not financially viable for a Desiro to operate the line so the line would probably have closed. The only way the line could survive was for an efficient Mk1 Slam Door unit to operate the service.

SWT can't use slammers on that line forever,how long before they become unrepairable.
Maybe a few 455 should do that line or extend the use of trains to say southampton and open up new journeys.

 

[Sprog]

Progress is the key word.

I am not oppesed to new trains, as long as they are worthy replacements.

Desiros for example are excellent replacements for the slammers. Ok, so enthusiasts may not agree with this, but im sure passengers will.

Adelantes are also good partners for HSTs (as apposed to replacemnts) for shorter haul routes (Oxford-Padd.) and semi-fast services.

Voyagers are cr*p replacements for the HSTs and loco-stock, in terms of capacity, facilities and quality of build. I know the HSTs and loco-stock was almsot life-expired etc, but VT could've taken there time and come up with a better replcement than the 220/221s, or at least put more thought into the voyagers. This still needs to be done, with a high-quality refurbishmet and reliablity modification of toilets etc.. is urgently required. VT also need more voyagers (and/or intermediate coaches) to increase there fleet capacity and thus, route/timetable possibilities.

Pendolinos are good in theory, but in reality, they are cramped and badly thought out similar to the voyagers. They will do, and to passengers that are new to the network they may seem very nice. However, those passengers coming from large, open Mk.3s and Mk.2s to the 'claustraphobic' enviroment of a 'pendo' its abit of a culture shock. My first ride on a 'pendo' was excellent, but they need work in the future. If VT had got its 140mph opertunity, the trains and service may hav been better, but now it's grand plans have all gone wrong, VT needs to seriously re-think its options regarding pendolino facilities, reliability, size and the dreaded 'drags' to Holyhead.

I have also complained to Virgin (XC) on several occasions, my recent experiance was having to stand in a urine smelling voyager vestuible from Leeds to Birmingham New Street, whilst returning from York. Their solution seems to be to throw compensation vouchers at the 'compalianees' and hope they just go away.... :? :roll:

 

[Lewisham2221]

Somebody who thinks that Pendolino's are better than Voyager's :?

Personaly, the only improvement that can (and needs) to be made to Voyagers is an extra coach or two on some Voyagers for use on the longer busier routes and the sorting the toilet problem. I personally have encountered more overcrowding on Pendo's due to the stupidly high amount of first class accomodation as well as more toilet problems (2 toilets in use on a 9 car train, all at the rear of Standard class).

Voyagers might not be great if travelling the full length of a route from Scotland to the South or summat (and that's just down to personal opinion in terms of comfort), but they are more than fine for other routes, Manchester-Reading and beyond etc. If the XC service is so bad, would XC really be carrying almost double the number of passengers it carried before?

As for the compensation vouchers, what more do you want? They can't just click their fingers and magic extra coaches/trains from thin air. And did you really have to stand all the way from Brum-Leeds? Unless you were travelling in a large party of people I'm sure it wouldn't have been hard to find a seat somewhere when people got off at intermediate stations.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

for your sake yorkie the Melksham line IS NOT closing, its only a reduction of services as i suppose theres a valid point about it, not many from melksham use the train anyway

 

[Jim]

I was thnking the other day.

SCRAP VSOE

Why you ask
Not DPDA compliant. So if that should stay, why should slammers???

 

[Guinness]

As I'm sure you agree with, the Loco's and Mk3's needed replacing to take the benefit of the WCML upgrade. Now, before anybody starts moaning that it's only a 15mph increase etc, well at least it IS an increase and as a result journy times have gone down. Not to mention that the original plans were for an even faster line.

But can you honestly say the upgrade was worth the cost?

I will admit that Pendolino's are far from being decent trains. Whilst I have no problem with Voyagers (except for the beeping which can get annoying after while), the Pendolino's are cramped, dingy and with appaling (and in cases non-existant) window views, as well as poor reliability. However, if they were running at 140mph things might be a bit more bearable, but you can't blame the train for the infrastructure upgrades not being good enough.

I have various issues with Voyagers, but let's not go there!

As for fares, well that can't be blamed entirely on the train either.

Really? I once emailed Virgin about their huge price increases[1] a while ago and their reason for the price increase was the introduction of new trains!

And, indeed you certainly can blame the new trains: just look at the economics.
1. Increased leasing charges
2. Massively increased track access charges (due to the trains being more track damaging AND due to twice as many trains running where 1 train ran before meaning 2 paths are used instead of 1)
3. Massively increased staffing costs (More drivers, more conductors, more shop staff even on double voyagers where they have to open 2 shops)
4. Lower overall capacity on some routes even though the number of trains has been increased, this applies to my route via York (2+7 HST has more capacity than a a 4 car and 5 car Voyagers).

The CrossCountry franchise alone now requires a huge subsidy. (I'm not sure of up-to-date figures, but it's far in excess of the whole of InterCity in BR days).

IIRC the 458's were recently one of the (or was it actually THE) best train on SWT.

They were until recently terribly unreliable, and the corridor connections are unusable due to safety concerns. I don't think I've heard anyone call them SWT's best trains.

The problem with this debate is that those who claim the new trains are good are ingoring the financial issues. The argument seems to be that new trains look/feel nice. But how can we justify the huge cost?

If the 'old trains are bad' argument was applied to the Lymington line, well quite simply it is not financially viable for a Desiro to operate the line so the line would probably have closed. The only way the line could survive was for an efficient Mk1 Slam Door unit to operate the service.

Unfortunately the huge costs of the power upgrade, the cost of the new trains and the increased running costs (and other factors), now mean that the rail industry is suffering a very serious funding crisis and the Government IS trying to CLOSE lines and CUT services.
s[/size]

The WCML was a success in my eyes - The problem with it was 140mph was not given due to Railtracks Collapse. Network Rail has done a good job salavanging the situation of it. What benefit
have I got from the WCML Mainline upgrade?

- Voyagers running to Birmingham and beyond every 30 minutes
- 20 minutes Saved off Journey times Thanks to Tilting Trains
- Better Journey times thanks to 125mph Times
- Macclesfield Station Refurbishment
- Stockport Station Gaining an additional Platform (Not Yet in Use)

In 2002 I picked up a full VT Timetable from London Euston with Full XC and WC Times. I've had a look at the Weekday Timetable for XC. It was appalling. You had irregular trains and slow journey times. 47s were breaking down unfortunately accross the Network

In 2005 I picked up 3 XC Timetables - All had Clockface Timetables and a better Frequency. True the trains were half the size but even Virgin Stated that double Frequencys would help. (Some Journeys it doesn't unfortunately - Same with GNER, MML and WCML).

Pendolinos - Windows are the main problems but there are two acceptable reasons for that....

Small - Tilting at 8 Degrees
Spacing Out - Make it crashworthy at 140mph - The spacing roughly bigger than a Mk4 Coach.

Same for Voyagers except they tilt at 6 Degrees. Voyagers are more designed for Short - Medium Commuter Trips. E.g. Manchester - Birmingham or Durham - Leeds etc. I recall you said this to me on the Blackpool Meet!

True things could be better but whats done is done.

 

[Guinness]

Just to add to my other post (The Edit Button seems to be broken ..)..

As Marv has said if the XC had been such a mess how come its had an additional 40% increase of passengers over the past 2 years?

Pendolinos and Voyagers were planned to come into service since 1995 when Virgin Trains won XC and WCML Franchises.

Also before the Upgrade the WCML was in Dire need for somesort of Investment anyway. Before the Titling thing began the WCML hadn't had anysort of major work for 50 Years! Virgin Trains or no Virgin Trains, some sort of upgrade had to happen sooner or latter!

 

[yorkie]

As Marv has said if the XC had been such a mess how come its had an additional 40% increase of passengers over the past 2 years?

Actually it hasn't. Ever heard the phrase 'ORCATS raid'?

Also if I buy a combination of CDRs I count as a different passenger each time. Due to Virgin's pricing policy it is now essential to buy a combination of CDRs (or SDRs) to avoid paying huge fares, and many passengers are now wise to this (it's been in a lot of newspapers).

The average distance travelled has fallen, but the number of 'journeys' are up, but the 'journeys' are not actual definite journeys but journeys attributed to them using ORCATS.

Chaz - Your points about the WCML upgrade don't answer my question about value for money. Remind me how many billions it's costing again please?

And bear in mind that the WCML upgrade going way over budget by many billions led to the SCRAPPING of the ECML upgrade. The ECML upgrade was going to be fairly modest but would have had some fairly substantial benefits, but we can't have it now thanks to the WCML. Was that a sensible choice, can you tell me honestly?

Again, those arguing in favour of new trains still have not considered any financial issues.

 

[Guinness]

As Marv has said if the XC had been such a mess how come its had an additional 40% increase of passengers over the past 2 years?

Actually it hasn't. Ever heard the phrase 'ORCATS raid'?

Also if I buy a combination of CDRs I count as a different passenger each time. Due to Virgin's pricing policy it is now essential to buy a combination of CDRs (or SDRs) to avoid paying huge fares, and many passengers are now wise to this (it's been in a lot of newspapers).

The average distance travelled has fallen, but the number of 'journeys' are up, but the 'journeys' are not actual definite journeys but journeys attributed to them using ORCATS.

Chaz - Your points about the WCML upgrade don't answer my question about value for money. Remind me how many billions it's costing again please?

And bear in mind that the WCML upgrade going way over budget by many billions led to the SCRAPPING of the ECML upgrade. The ECML upgrade was going to be fairly modest but would have had some fairly substantial benefits, but we can't have it now thanks to the WCML. Was that a sensible choice, can you tell me honestly?

Again, those arguing in favour of new trains still have not considered any financial issues.

May I remind you that the SRA actually set some fares. You have to take into account that Virgin do publish alot about Advance Rail Fares etc. For the cheaper option.

My points were never to answer any of your financial questions. I was simply pointing out the benefits for a Passenger living on the WCML.

 

[yorkie]

May I remind you that the SRA actually set some fares.

May I remind you that Virgin did set the fares. The SRA now set some fares, and have (obviously!) not reduced them from the high levels set by Virgin. And the point remains: the new trains have caused higher fares!

You have to take into account that Virgin do publish alot about Advance Rail Fares etc. For the cheaper option.

Not sure what you mean.

My points were never to answer any of your financial questions.

My points are mostly based on finance though: the fact is that many of the new trains we are now using from abroad are very expensive, and are uneconomical. I take it you don't disagree there?

I was simply pointing out the benefits for a Passenger living on the WCML.

But, again, is it worth the HUGE cost? As a passenger on all lines, but mostly the ECML where we have had our upgrade shelved due to the money problems, I would say no, it's been very poor value for money.

 

[Guinness]

My points were never to answer any of your financial questions.

My points are mostly based on finance though: the fact is that many of the new trains we are now using from abroad are very expensive, and are uneconomical. I take it you don't disagree there?

I was simply pointing out the benefits for a Passenger living on the WCML.

But, again, is it worth the HUGE cost? As a passenger on all lines, but mostly the ECML where we have had our upgrade shelved due to the money problems, I would say no, it's been very poor value for money.

[/quote]

What are you suggesting then? We use old stock until each one crashes or becomes unservicable? I think not some how....

IMO What upgrades do the ECML Need (Except for the Some Bottlenecks along various points along the line)....

 

[Lewisham2221]

the fact is that many of the new trains we are now using from abroad are very expensive, and are uneconomical.

I thought the Alstom trains (Pendolino, Adelante, Juniper, Coradia) were built at Alstom Washwood Heath/Brimingham and the Bombardier trains (Electrostar and Turbostar) were built at Bombardier Derby, plus the 220/221/222 were part built at Derby and in Belgium. That makes just the Desiros and 66/67's built abroad.

 

[Guinness]

To Partly answer your Finacial Question Yorkie, Virgin have to raise charges due to increase costs from Track Charges and the 40% Increase in OHLE - The Same OHLE that partly help stop GBRf from using 87s.

Crude Oil Raises had shot up within the past year which not only effects Voyagers but the Airline, Bus and of course Car Industrys.

 

[yorkie]

What are you suggesting then? We use old stock until each one crashes or becomes unservicable? I think not some how....

Sorry but I cannot bring myself to answer that. I would laugh but no, it's too serious for that.

IMO What upgrades do the ECML Need (Except for the Some Bottlenecks along various points along the line)....

Sorry?

 

[yorkie]

I thought the Alstom trains (Pendolino, Adelante, Juniper, Coradia) were built at Alstom Washwood Heath/Brimingham and the Bombardier trains (Electrostar and Turbostar) were built at Bombardier Derby, plus the 220/221/222 were part built at Derby and in Belgium. That makes just the Desiros and 66/67's built abroad.

Oh come on, they hardly count as British trains! They may have been built here, but the design is not British at all.

 

[yorkie]

To Partly answer your Finacial Question Yorkie, Virgin have to raise charges due to increase costs from Track Charges

Exactly! (See my track access charges comment above), we finally agree!

and the 40% Increase in OHLE - The Same OHLE that partly help stop GBRf from using 87s.

Where's your source? I think you mean the price of electricity. I did read about an impending increase a few weeks ago (it may have just kicked in, or is about to), but that has nothing to do with Virgin's price increases as they increased their prices massively long before these increases. I am sure the increase isn't as high as 40%, but I do know that the cost of electricity was cheaper than it should have been for a while and NR now need to charge more to cover it.

Crude Oil Raises had shot up within the past year which not only effects Voyagers but the Airline, Bus and of course Car Industrys.

Absolutely. Excellent point. And that is exactly why we should run efficient trains, that use less fuel.

I think a quote from Roger Ford sums up my position on this matter:-

An existing 8-car IC125 is just under 11hp/tonne. In contrast, the current 125mph diesel multiple units with 750 Cummins horses under each vehicle come in at about 15hp/tonne. In an increasingly energy concious world, I am not alone in deeming this excessive

 

[Lewisham2221]

To Partly answer your Finacial Question Yorkie, Virgin have to raise charges due to increase costs from Track Charges

Exactly! (See my track access charges comment above), we finally agree!

and the 40% Increase in OHLE - The Same OHLE that partly help stop GBRf from using 87s.

Where's your source? I think you mean the price of electricity. I did read about an impending increase a few weeks ago (it may have just kicked in, or is about to), but that has nothing to do with Virgin's price increases as they increased their prices massively long before these increases. I am sure the increase isn't as high as 40%, but I do know that the cost of electricity was cheaper than it should have been for a while and NR now need to charge more to cover it.

So you're blaming new trains for NR not charging enough for electricity?

Crude Oil Raises had shot up within the past year which not only effects Voyagers but the Airline, Bus and of course Car Industrys.

Absolutely. Excellent point. And that is exactly why we should run efficient trains, that use less fuel.

I think a quote from Roger Ford sums up my position on this matter:-

An existing 8-car IC125 is just under 11hp/tonne. In contrast, the current 125mph diesel multiple units with 750 Cummins horses under each vehicle come in at about 15hp/tonne. In an increasingly energy concious world, I am not alone in deeming this excessive

[/quote]

So we have more powerful trains. Although power increases are possible without becoming less efficient. That quote says nothing about efficency, just power increases.

 

[Sprog]

Somebody who thinks that Pendolino's are better than Voyager's :?

Personaly, the only improvement that can (and needs) to be made to Voyagers is an extra coach or two on some Voyagers for use on the longer busier routes and the sorting the toilet problem. I personally have encountered more overcrowding on Pendo's due to the stupidly high amount of first class accomodation as well as more toilet problems (2 toilets in use on a 9 car train, all at the rear of Standard class).

Voyagers might not be great if travelling the full length of a route from Scotland to the South or summat (and that's just down to personal opinion in terms of comfort), but they are more than fine for other routes, Manchester-Reading and beyond etc. If the XC service is so bad, would XC really be carrying almost double the number of passengers it carried before?

As for the compensation vouchers, what more do you want? They can't just click their fingers and magic extra coaches/trains from thin air. And did you really have to stand all the way from Brum-Leeds? Unless you were travelling in a large party of people I'm sure it wouldn't have been hard to find a seat somewhere when people got off at intermediate stations.

Ok, heres my hounest, raw opinion. VTs (XC and WC) trains are the biggest pile of sh*t ive ever seen. The voayegers especially. They are a let-down to the otherwise good Virgin (atlantic etc.) brand and i cant believe that they are so terible and the TOC bought them. I especially hate the voyagers for there lack of capacity, cramped conditions, noisey underfloor engines, rank toilets, apalling capacity limitations, tacky-ness, and that stupid 'shop, that sells a crap range of mags, food and 'CDs' '

I dont want to buy a bloody copy of 'Now 70' for about 10 quid over the normal RRP, when i can buy it in my local music shop, 'KAYs' for about a 5er. Wouldnt buy it anyway, but thats just an example

I never travel with VT now, and if i have to travle 'north' etc, i ALWAYS seek alternative routes. Eg. Stuff Bristol PW to Crewe via BNS. I go BPW to Newport, then with ATW on the Cwmbran (sorry bout spelling) line to Crewe. :roll:

As for you doubting my story of me standing from LEEDs to BNS, im being 100% hounest. It was a four car 220 on a peak-time service. My dad and I picked it up at Leeds after a day out in Yorkshire. And before you say anything about waitng for the next one. We HAD to get that train to get our connection at BNS (which was the last train back to Bristol, where we had a pair of reseverd seats waiting for us). The train was literally full and standing when it pulled into Leeds. The platform was loaded with passengers for the train. We and another 10 people had to cram into the vestuable. Every seat in all four coaches was full. There where people stading in the isles and every other vestuible had as many people as it could get in. Even the 'Club Class' section was full to the brim, with 1 1st class fare-paying gent sitting on his suitcase because of the lack of seats. The train manager didnt even attempt to walk the train and at every 'intermeidiate' stops, only a few passegers got off, and the people standing in the isles hastily took them. And the influx of extra pasengers from these stops also 'topped' the numbers back up again...

The vestuible we where STANDING in was hot and stuffy, smelly (owing to the fact that the toilet had a full (or broken) CET tank, claustraphobic, and at one point, not long after Derby, a woman standing with us complained she was feeling faint. We all co-operated, and got a passenger in the seating area to give up his seat so she could sit and recover. It was an absolute nigtmare, and it has happend to me an my dad on our travels across the VT network several times. That is an extreme case, but it shouldnt happen in the first place.

Even when we got to BNS and the service terminated, it was a mad dash to the other paltforms to catch our other train back to Bristol. Even that train was full, and we, to my absolute embarrasment, had to ask a family who where sitting in our reserved seats to vacate them, breaking the family up throught single seats in the coach.

As for improving the 220/221s, i do not expect coaches to be summoned from 'thin air'. Virgin where expecting a massive increase in passenger numbers as soon as operation princess was put into action. Yet they replaced 7 car HSTs and mk.2 formations with 4 and 5 car DEMUs. I know they stepped up service frequency and all, but on paper it works, in real life it doesnt. Communters/Passengers arnt gonna wait another 30 minutes for a service if theres one there and then!! :? . They are all going to cram onto that one train.

VT need to stop denying their problems and use some of that millons of pounds of compensation they recived from Railtrack for the WCML cock up to buy more trains/or increase the capacity of the currnet. And if their still short of money, Branson need to step in and assist this AWOL part of his giant empire, or his whole railway business is goin got crash and burn. Its well on its way to doing now, may i add.

I dont expect petty and measly £10 travel vouchers to be thrown at me when i have had a bad experiance. I'd rather that they actually listen to what there being told, get there heads out of thier ar*es and sort the problem.

IM SORRY FOR THIS INCREDABLY LONG POST.

......But the nasty, highly critical and bitchy approach of some of the members on this forum are begining to irritate me and put me off posting here. I wa only expressing my views, in the most reasonable and non-bias way i could, but this is obviously not 'good enough' for some members.

Sorry any typos, but my fingers are sore now..

 

[yorkie]

So you're blaming new trains for NR not charging enough for electricity?

That doesn't make sense! Where do you get that idea?

 

[yorkie]

..But the nasty, highly critical and bitchy approach of some of the members on this forum are beginng to irritate me and put me off posting here. I wa only expressing my views, in the most reasonable and non-bias way i could, but this is obviously not 'good enough' for some members.

Don't be put off. It's just a tiny number who do this, and they're more interested in arguing against the reliable British trains because they know I'll disagree.

 

[Lewisham2221]

So you're blaming new trains for NR not charging enough for electricity?

That doesn't make sense! Where do you get that idea?

You moan about the new trains costing more to run. If the reason Pendolino's are costing more to run is because NR have had to raise charges for electricity because their charges were too low before, then you can't blaim the Pendolino. Unless I've just got confused somewhere, in which case I apologise.

 

[Lewisham2221]

..But the nasty, highly critical and bitchy approach of some of the members on this forum are beginng to irritate me and put me off posting here. I wa only expressing my views, in the most reasonable and non-bias way i could, but this is obviously not 'good enough' for some members.

Don't be put off. It's just a tiny number who do this, and they're more interested in arguing against the reliable British trains because they know I'll disagree.

Yes, because as an enthusiast, I enjoy being called an argumentitive, anti-enthusiast, troublemaker. NOT.

 

[yorkie]

You moan about the new trains costing more to run. If the reason Pendolino's are costing more to run is because NR have had to raise charges for electricity because their charges were too low before, then you can't blaim the Pendolino. Unless I've just got confused somewhere, in which case I apologise.

I think you have got confused between two seperate issues.

The power cost issue was brought up by Chaz, I was responding to it. It's not connected with the new trains (although they do indeed use a lot more electricity, there was an article about it by Roger Ford, so yes they cost more to run in that sense but that's just one tiny part of the jigsaw).

 

[Dave A]

..But the nasty, highly critical and bitchy approach of some of the members on this forum are beginng to irritate me and put me off posting here. I wa only expressing my views, in the most reasonable and non-bias way i could, but this is obviously not 'good enough' for some members.

Don't be put off. It's just a tiny number who do this, and they're more interested in arguing against the reliable British trains because they know I'll disagree.

I can completely agree that the British made trains are reliable but in a modern world we need modern trains

Besides, look at it this way. If we were still in the age where "slammers ruled the coasts", then we wouldn't have meets!

 

[Techniquest]

Hmm, an interesting page of discussion.

spm_43030, I didn't have the patience (I'm heading out soon for a couple of hours in BTM, hunting that last 221!) to read all of your post, but just wanted to say two things:

First, the ATW route is referred to more commonly as the 'Marches' route. 'The Misery Line' heart-of-wessex and I refer to it as. You did spell Cwmbran correctly though!

Second, the bitchiness will end eventually, just the light at the end of that tunnel isn't in view yet. Got held at a red in the middle of it we have (the nicest way to put what I was thinking).

Thirdly (OK, I lied before), I'm glad your views of Voyagers are of a negative nature. Didn't see whether you thought the same of Pendodildos, but I guess it'll be the same. I'll personally take a Voyager if it means a 2-hour wait or something otherwise. Most of the time it's a Voyager from BPW to BRI, so I go on them then. Not usually through choice though I must say.

 

[yorkie]

I can completely agree that the British made trains are reliable but in a modern world we need modern trains

Really? at the expense of reliability? Despite reliability being the number 1 issue for most passengers? You're perfectly entitled to that opinion, but I disagree.

But why does everything have to be 'modern'? And what do you mean by modern? How modern do they have to be? Surely a train should be judged on factors such as reliability, efficiency, etc rather than how old it is?

Are Chiltern and SWT wrong for using their slam door trains?

Can you honestly tell me that Valley Lines services to Rhymney will be improved when the Class 37s + Mk2s will be replaced by (newer) Pacers?

Can you honestly say that Pendolinos have a better ambience than GNER's refurbished Mk3 and Mk4s?

Again the issue of the financial crisis leading to proposed cuts (mostly in the North) has been ignored. I have noted that those in favour of the expensive new trains (at the expense of service cuts elsewhere) are in areas that benefit from the new trains, not on lines that are deprived of investment to pay for them. You are entitled to your opinions, but I do wish the issue of finance and cuts was not completely ignored.

 

[Dave A]

Yorkie, I'd love it if every time I stepped onto a train it was a reliable, British made slammer, believe me, I would :roll:

But, I've got 2 younger brothers and a sister, all younger than me. Now, when I first "remember" getting on a slammer was from London Bridge to Bognor Regis about 5-6 yrs ago. So, imagine it, 4 kids, 2 in push-chairs, getting on and off a slammer, in the peak of the holiday season, going to a busy holiday park! - Almost hell! hock:

Now imagine the same journey, but on a "plastic" like the turbo/electro-stars. Much easier! Its been done, ok, they're a bit older, but children will still be children!

I'm in no way against what you said about them being un-reliable, seeing as the last 2 times I've got on a cl377 its broken down and air con not working :x , and they are VERY costly but the world and especially London, is not equipped for train enthusiasts!

Trains today are there to make a journey easier and even if they do brake down, as its a lot easier for a family to change from a cl377 to another, rather than a slammer to a slammer.