What's wrong (right?) with Pendolinos?

[Bevan Price]

Good points:
1. They are fast and fairly reliable.
2. they have enabled more frequent services on some lines.

Not so good points:
1. The internal layout is awful - some luggage racks in front of windows, some seats with no view through a window.
2. Very claustrophobic.
3. Cluttered entrance/exit area causes passenger congestion at station stops.
4. Insufficient luggage space.
5. Too much first class seating, especially on the 9 coach sets; two coaches should be adequate for almost all services.
6. Seats too narrow. I am not fat, but seats nearly 2 inches narrower than Mark 2 seats is not my idea of an improvement.
7. Digital reservation displays are awful - takes too long to read, especially if you are looking for unreserved seats; also causes queues of passengers in the gangways whilst boarding and looking for a seat. Paper reservation labels are much more "passenger friendly".

 

[Camden]

When travelling at full pelt, I half expect to hear "She's coming apart Captain!" shouted out over the PA. I often work because I have to, but it's really not at all comfortable.

 

[Techniquest]

Oh aye, the location of the shop. It puts me off taking advantage, on the rare occasions I can, of Weekend First on Virgin. Never mind, it saves me money!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Good points:

1) They're fast.
2) The lighting is at a nice relaxing level.
3) They make the Voyagers look luxurious.

Bad points:

1) Poor ability to see out.
2) Tilt is less comfortable than the sideways "throw" on non-tilt stock.
3) Seats with no view at all and next to those, luggage stacks across the middle of windows.
4) Cramped feel; I am not in any way claustrophobic but do prefer the "long tube" effect of more open stock.
5) They're smelly.

 

[Dent]

The silent majority think they're fine/ok/do the job, generally punctual and reliable.

How do you know that?

 

[Blamethrower]

Good:

Fast with quiet, jerk-free acceleration
Tilts - who can't love that? (apart from those who feel sick)
Low level lighting - this must be introduced across the network, I am very sensitive to strong fluorescent lights
Good looking train run by usually excellent staff
Reliability - Sit over a bogie and you will wonder how on earth these trains stay together. Essentially shaken to bits by the rickety old WCML
Windows - Yes, I like the windows on a pendo, they are perfect for blocking strong sunlight out. My pet hate on any other train is that on a hot day, pick the wrong side and you get cooked. Pendo windows negate that and you still don't have to scooch to see out of them. A brilliant design that looks great on the outside too, also helps keep interior brightness nice and low.

Bad:

Uncomfortable seats - I have wide shoulders and so I have to sit on a window seat every time so that I can use the extra 2 inches of space afforded to the window sill. I always have to sit next to a woman or my missus as I still hang over the edge.

Blinds - a great idea but always rattle all the way. I have often seen little bits of tissue stuffed in them to stop them rattling

Toilets + smell - self explanatory really

Stupid smile on the front and plasticky seats/tables make this feel like it was designed for kids.

Station dwell times due to the time it takes to stop, wait, beep, open steps, then open door, matches the 350's exactly, so I ask you, was this actually a requirement? Ridiculous drag on dwell times for all trains except the 377s.

At seat radio - just no


In conclusion, I really like the pendos, if they could improve a few quality/comfort issues, they would be favourite train on the network by miles.

The Class 222 Meridian interior should be the standard for narrow-shelled long-distance trains. Put the 222 interior into a pendo and you have my ideal train

 

[Bletchleyite]

At seat radio - just no

Indeed not. They have been out of use for ages, because the rack-mounts were used for the wi-fi.

 

[TheEdge]

I think every single issue with the perceived comfort issues of 390s, the small windows, extra bulkheads and all that is immediately exonerated by Greyrigg.

Pretty confident if that was anything but a 390 it would have had a death count up there with Ladbroke Grove and Clapham, if not higher.

 

[fowler9]

Good:

The look nice from the outside.
They are fast.

Bad:

They stink.
They are very claustrophobic (In my opinion).
Windows too small.
Blinds. (One person can decide to block out the little natural light that gets in)
The lighting is too dim.
The seat backs seem to nearly come up to the top of the windows.
Too much first class on the 9 car units.
Bulkheads all over the place and luggage racks with views out of the window.
They stink.

 

[DarloRich]

I'll admit the Class 222 interior (which has subdued lighting but lighter internal colours) does work a little better. So do the bigger windows. But I still find I like the Pendolino's interior look quite a lot.

Only key things I'd change are more legroom (perhaps better seats as well - I would be interested to know what First intended to fit) and bigger windows if that were an option.

I quite like the 222 actually.

I don't think you can change the window size on a pendo as it is integral to the design/doncstruction
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At seat radio - just no

i forgot about the at seat radio. No doubt a good idea at the the time but probable personal technology moved on so quickly that they became redundant. They now seem to break and snag your trousers.

I did used to like listening to BBC R4 news in the morning/evening whilst on the move

 

[Chrisgr31]

I think every single issue with the perceived comfort issues of 390s, the small windows, extra bulkheads and all that is immediately exonerated by Greyrigg.

Pretty confident if that was anything but a 390 it would have had a death count up there with Ladbroke Grove and Clapham, if not higher.

That might be a fact but not really sure many peple would care which sounds callous but is probably true. Reality is that when I get on a train I rather expect to get off the other end without it crashing. In fact the chances of it crashing are so low I'd prefer to have more comfort than the ridiculously cramped seats offered on the WCML.

I think the real issue is caused by the sloping sides, so that if you are in a windown seat that is adjacent a bulkhead rather than the window itself there is no space for your shoulders. If you are actually adjacent a window there is extra space created by the window and it is nowhere near as bad.

Dont really notice the other issues people mention just hate the lack of shoulder room.

 

[DarloRich]

I think every single issue with the perceived comfort issues of 390s, the small windows, extra bulkheads and all that is immediately exonerated by Greyrigg.

Pretty confident if that was anything but a 390 it would have had a death count up there with Ladbroke Grove and Clapham, if not higher.

Perhaps, yet when i have used similar train abroad more intelligence seems to have gone into the interior fit out and passenger comfort. Why cant we have safety AND comfort?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps, yet when i have used similar train abroad more intelligence seems to have gone into the interior fit out and passenger comfort. Why cant we have safety AND comfort?

Voyager hybrid coach?

 

[Clip]

Well potentially there are problems
Would you propose a MK3 loco hauled taking 25% longer and having no power sockets, and with a higher rate of failure.

I think they were very good progress with potentially some oversights.

I don't have a problem getting socket as i generally book in advance.

eh? What you on about man?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Wait, I thought the toilet smell was Voyagers and it was to do with the exhaust cooking the retention tank.

I have never smelled a thing on a Pendolino...

 

[fowler9]

Wait, I thought the toilet smell was Voyagers and it was to do with the exhaust cooking the retention tank.

I have never smelled a thing on a Pendolino...

I always find them a little bit wiffy myself. My nose is probably to close to my a**e.

 

[fandroid]

Having kicked this one off- thanks to those who have commented.

There will always be a few who prefer the quasi-compartment atmosphere that those bulkheads give, but I suspect that most prefer an open saloon with plenty of window visible. After all, the 390s go through some superb landscapes (Shap and the Scottish Southern Uplands).

There was a big element of Hobson's Choice when Virgin went for the Pendolinos: They were a proven train with tilt capability. It's difficult to argue that wasn't the right priority at the time. Speed over interior design. However, at the same time, they ordered class 220/1 for 125 mph with tilt. The big downside with those is the thundering diesels underneath. The saloon is a lot more customer friendly, with much bigger windows. The overhead racks aren't much cop, but that's a fundamental problem with many Bombardier units, as they seem to steal the top passenger compartment roof corners for hidden services of some kind.

What I'm saying is, Pendolinos are great for being (relatively) modern, fast and reliable, but it's time we had a strongly passenger-focussed alternative. Those Manchester folk would be amazed if they had units that combined the 390 speed with good open interiors and plenty of window. My vote would be for an interior based on the Siemens Desiro class 444, with extra luggage racks at the saloon ends (and better seats?). It's a great pity that London Midland plumped for 1/3 and 2/3 doors on its long-distance Desiros. Even so, they remain the best way to actually see the passing countryside when travelling on the WCML.

 

[Mikey C]

Like most commenters, I find them good trains mechanically, but poor from the interior point of view, and no I don't think it's just enthusiasts that are bothered about such things, even if regulars may be more worried about Wifi
Small windows and seat heights mean that even if you have a window on your size, you can see nothing out the other side.
Overhead luggage racks that are so narrow that very little fits, resulting in excess luggage blocking the gangway. Indeed, I ended buying a long, low holdall, as unlike most luggage it will fit above!

 

[mbreckers]

I'll admit I find the Pendolinos a bit claustrophobic, but considering that in the worst case scenario, the train will generally stay in one piece, I'm happy to have smaller windows:

"All the carriages remained structurally intact, with damage mainly confined to the crumple zones at their ends. None of the windows broke, and lighting remained in all the carriages. Most injuries occurred in the front two carriages."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayrigg_derailment

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The first "refreshed" Pendolino (or is it just coach G?) is now running around the WCML.
Over the next 18 months the entire fleet will get the upgrade.
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/

Coach G in 9-car trains is being converted from First to Standard.
It doesn't say anything about more power sockets though.
I think a new wifi system is going in as well, but whether it works any better before NR does the lineside work I don't know.

 

[CC 72100]

Wait, I thought the toilet smell was Voyagers and it was to do with the exhaust cooking the retention tank.

I have never smelled a thing on a Pendolino...

Whenever I've used pendolinos I've noticed a nasty smell - not as noticeable as the voyagers - when boarding. Can't quite put my finger on what it actually is, but I've not noticed it on other units that also retain waste.

 

[fowler9]

Like most commenters, I find them good trains mechanically, but poor from the interior point of view, and no I don't think it's just enthusiasts that are bothered about such things, even if regulars may be more worried about Wifi
Small windows and seat heights mean that even if you have a window on your size, you can see nothing out the other side.
Overhead luggage racks that are so narrow that very little fits, resulting in excess luggage blocking the gangway. Indeed, I ended buying a long, low holdall, as unlike most luggage it will fit above!

People keep coming out with this "only Enthusiasts are worried about these things". From what I can see the enthusiasts are all saying they look great and are fast but are crap to travel on. Surely for once the enthusiasts are in agreement with the more regular passengers. No one knows what the "silent majority" think. They are silent.

As an example of what people who aren't really interested what they travel on think I worked with a girl who once said she hadn't been on a proper plane, just an Airbus. I don't think she was a Boeing Fangirl. She just heard the make of plane and assumed it was some kind of lesser experience because bus was in the name.

Most people don't love Pendos or Voyagers, they just correctly assume there is little option.

 

[DarloRich]

Whenever I've used pendolinos I've noticed a nasty smell - not as noticeable as the voyagers - when boarding. Can't quite put my finger on what it actually is, but I've not noticed it on other units that also retain waste.

There is often a ripe smell in the vestibule but the internal door/ventilation seems to keep the smell out of the cabin

 

[fowler9]

There is often a ripe smell in the vestibule but the internal door/ventilation seems to keep the smell out of the cabin

If you are sat near the vestibule though it does waft in somewhat. It is an ozone/heated up poo smell. I think it tends to be younger rail enthusiasts who don't seem to notice the underfloor engine noise from DMU's or the stench from Voyagers and Pendos because it has just always been there and seems normal.

 

[87031]

Converting the 1st class coach to standard makes sense on the 9 car units considering how empty first is. In Mk3 days most service's had at the very most 3 first class apart from Pullmans so why they ever went for 4 is beyond me.

 

[hulabaloo]

I've just googled 390 interior and although I agree with the small windows it doesn't seem that bad.

 

[jon0844]

I'm hearing more and more people talking about these power packs for mobile phones, they sound like a smart investment as I do tend to use my phone a lot when on trips. Not entirely sure I'm willing to pay £50 for one mind, but certainly a worthy investment for long days on trains without power points!

If you're on EE you can now get a portable battery charger for free (well 35p for the cost of sending POWER to 365). Once depleted you charge it yourself or call into an EE store to swap for a fully charged one, again for free.

They're quite small and probably good for one full charge or even slightly less, but a useful accessory. Amazon is full of similar, with carrying capacity. Prices start from about a fiver updates I think.

 

[cjmillsnun]

If you're on EE you can now get a portable battery charger for free (well 35p for the cost of sending POWER to 365). Once depleted you charge it yourself or call into an EE store to swap for a fully charged one, again for free.

They're quite small and probably good for one full charge or even slightly less, but a useful accessory. Amazon is full of similar, with carrying capacity. Prices start from about a fiver updates I think.

Thank you. Didn't know and have now got my code for one.

 

[IanM]

The window pillars are ridiculously wide.
The tops of the windows are only about 150mm above the seat backs.
(All the above conspires to minimise visible Windows, so induce claustrophobia)

Having worked out in Savigliano on the Fiat Ferroviaria design team (before it was swallowed by Alstom), one of the things I worked hard to try and change was the window size. Alas, it wasn't possible to have bigger windows without compromising the bodyshell strength and/or fatigue life. All of which resulted in:

They hold up incredibly well in a derailment too, see Grayrigg.

Life's full of compromises!

 

[SephenWorceste]

I agree with most of the negatives. Smelly toilets seem the norm on trains. I have smelt the same on 172, TGV and ICE3 trains. Standard seems too dark (to read), dingy and claustrophobic. A change of decoration might help. First is fine to me. Not quite a HST but reasonably comfortable. Luckily a First Advance the ticket is often priced below a Standard flexible ticket. I just give up my flexibility.

A real plus for me is nine and eleven coaches. Much easier to get a seat than Cross Country. Also if I travel with FGW my eight coach HST might get swapped for a two car Turbo.

Best wishes, Stephen.