What's this?!!

[BestWestern]

Hello all,

Does anybody fancy taking an informed guess as to what this is, found in the cab of an Arriva 150? I thought perhaps ERTMS, but there's no mount for the large screen which I believe is needed, as on the 158's. Curious...

 

[swt_passenger]

Hello all,

Does anybody fancy taking an informed guess as to what this is, found in the cab of an Arriva 150? I thought perhaps ERTMS, but there's no mount for the large screen which I believe is needed, as on the 158's. Curious...

I'd take a guess that it's the modifications for GSM(R) fitting in due course. Radio set on left and handset bracket goes to the right maybe? Most units will have to have their existing NRN or CSR fitted at the same time, depending on where they operate and the overlap with GSM(R) rollout.

 

[BestWestern]

I'd take a guess that it's the modifications for GSM(R) fitting in due course. Radio set on left and handset bracket goes to the right maybe? Most units will have to have their existing NRN or CSR fitted at the same time, depending on where they operate and the overlap with GSM(R) rollout.

Yeah that would seem a logical thought. Just a tad odd that it doesn't appear to be a universal modification, it's the only ATW 150 I've come across with it fitted, and none of FGW's have it. Still, have to start somewhere I guess!

 

[driver9000]

Yes it is the mounting for the GSM-R radio sets. Northern have been fitting these slowly to it's Pacers and Sprinters for about the last 18 months. The panel for the 142 is a different design though. The radio unit will be the horizontal plate and the handset will be the vertical set. On the 156 this has meant turning the AWS/switch tower towards the Driver slightly.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes it is the mounting for the GSM-R radio sets. Northern have been fitting these slowly to it's Pacers and Sprinters for about the last 18 months. The panel for the 142 is a different design though. The radio unit will be the horizontal plate and the handset will be the vertical set. On the 156 this has meant turning the AWS/switch tower towards the Driver slightly.

Am I right in thinking the Roscos will be having to modify every cab in use to take the radio - and this is the time consuming bit. So is it likely the actual radio sets will then be held in store until a particular TOC's fleet gets fitted all at once as and when a particular geographic area goes live?

I can't think of any units or passenger locos that won't be fitted as there don't seem to be any that are going to be retired in the next few years - although I guess the freight companies will have a few locos that won't need fitting...

 

[driver9000]

Every traction unit that will be running on the network after GSM-R is switched on will need to be fitted with the GSM radio sets. NRN and CSR are being abandoned (except I'm told for one small part of the North East which will retain NRN as GSM signals can't be picked up there). Every class has had a 'first of type' fitting in which one of each type was fitted with the radios as trial run and to discover any issues with fitting the equipment. Northern fitted one of each type it runs except for the 156 which had already been covered by Scotrail and the 180s. After the mountings are fitted and the wired up the system is tested and then the radio sets are removed and stored to prevent them being damaged, in some cases the MCB has been secured in the 'out' position. There is a lot of work to be done before GSM-R goes fully live (it's already running on some lines overlaid to the current system) but from what I've seen the mounts are appearing in more and more cabs. I believe the ROSCOs are covering the bulk of the cost as they would do with other system wide developments - such as TPWS.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for that - does seem to make a lot of sense to do it as a (relatively) long term exercise.

 

[jopsuk]

(except I'm told for one small part of the North East which will retain NRN as GSM signals can't be picked up there).

This sounds a bit odd- surely there's something can be done with additional masts? It is, after all, essentially the same cellular communication protocol as used by mobile phones.

 

[Nym]

There are some things that no amount of masts will help, a large amount of ferrous metals in the ground will suitabily screw up a radio signal for example.

 

[Smudger105e]

I know a few years back EWS (actually their technical section ESG) had one of each class of loco fitted with GSM-R equipment to check positioning of aerials, etc. IIRC they fitted a 56, a 37, an 08, a 31... just in case

 

[HugePilchard]

This sounds a bit odd- surely there's something can be done with additional masts? It is, after all, essentially the same cellular communication protocol as used by mobile phones.

Hmmm, yes and no. Nym points to the amount of ferrous material in the ground, and I guess that could make a difference if you're going through a deep cutting with such rocks on either side, shielding the mobile terminal from the base stations.

This sort of technology works best if there's good line of sight to the base station, and in particularly rugged landscape that might be difficult without sticking more base stations in. Whether or not you do so depends on cost vs benefit really. If a base station in a particular location only gives you 200m in each direction, do you spend the many tens of thousands of pounds that one costs? If you already have a working cab radio system, and it's not a line where you require an in-cab signalling technology that's dependent on GSM-R, then why bother?

The mobile operators will do the same thing - they do tend to put base stations in where they're cost-effective; in particular, if there are two fairly straight sections of line coming up to each other at a curve, it's not uncommon for there to be a base station somewhere at that curve. The antennas on the base stations are fairly directional, so they'll be panned in such a way that they're pointing straight up or down the line. However, they'll still do the same thing - if there's a steep cutting or tunnel, and there's no chance of recouping the rather high cost of installing a new base station, then they simply won't do it.

 

[Swanny200]

It's I suppose similar to the system we use at work, I'm a taxi controller and we currently use radio via a data head but as soon as it gets to built up area's in Bathgate or Edinburgh we lose Radio signal and GPS signal. We have had a new trial run start with new data heads that use GPRS as a back up, we can get the taxi's near enough anywhere (still some issues with central Edinburgh due to high buildings that block off all signals) on GPS and even if we cannot get them on voice radio we can at least send them a message if needed.

 

[Benno]

I believe the ROSCOs are covering the bulk of the cost as they would do with other system wide developments - such as TPWS.

Network Rail are covering the costs of fitting GSM-R equipment as it is a mandatory modification.

 

[BestWestern]

Let's just hope that the GSM-R signal is better than the current NRN efforts, or it's a waste of time!