What's the reason behind the Caledonian Sleeper not accepting 26-30 Railcards?

[startingaparty]

As the title, is there a reason the Caledonian Sleeper does not accept 26-30 Railcards?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Certainly been the case for several years; we had a discussion on the topic back in 2019, which would have been more or less around the time that the 26-30 Railcard product was first being rolled out nationally.

26-30 Railcard and Caledonian Sleeper

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #20 originally in this thread. I'll be buying one. My 16-25 expired a few months ago and I've got some Caledonian Sleeper trips planned for which I want the discount rate for First Class.

www.railforums.co.uk

Conclusion was, in post #77, by the then regular contributor @ForTheLoveOf, that they (Caledonian Sleeper) had no obligation to accept it, as it wasn't one of the Railcards that the DfT had the power to make them accept, as per their franchise agreement.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Certainly been the case for several years; we had a discussion on the topic back in 2019, which would have been more or less around the time that the 26-30 Railcard product was first being rolled out nationally.

26-30 Railcard and Caledonian Sleeper

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #20 originally in this thread. I'll be buying one. My 16-25 expired a few months ago and I've got some Caledonian Sleeper trips planned for which I want the discount rate for First Class.

www.railforums.co.uk

Conclusion was, in post #77, by the then regular contributor @ForTheLoveOf, that they (Caledonian Sleeper) had no obligation to accept it, as it wasn't one of the Railcards that the DfT had the power to make them accept, as per their franchise agreement.

DfT doesn’t come into it with the two Scottish TOCs

 

[Mcr Warrior]

DfT doesn’t come into it with the two Scottish TOCs

So noted. Care to clarify/correct the now closed 2019 thread?

 

[Haywain]

It's one of a number of new railcards that have been created over recent years that have mixed levels of buy-in from TOCs. On these new railcards universal acceptance is not a requirement.

 

[A S Leib]

Is the presence of Young Scot cards and their 33% discount on ScotRail services (I don't know if that's also on LNER, Avanti, TPE and CrossCountry in Scotland) a factor?

Edit: never mind, misread the title as 16-25.

 

[Watershed]

DfT doesn’t come into it with the two Scottish TOCs

Then, as now, you are trying to pedantically correct people - but you are missing the point.

Section 28 of the Railways Act 1993, as amended, applies to every "appropriate franchising authority". That means the DfT for English franchises, TfW for Welsh ones, and Transport Scotland for Scottish ones.

So TS are subject to exactly the same obligation as the DfT in this respect - to ensure that their franchise agreements contain terms requiring the acceptance of the "discount schemes" (i.e. Railcards) specified in the Act.

However, I presume it is deemed that 26-30 Railcards aren't for "young" people, hence they aren't one of the categories of mandated Railcards (for "young, elderly or disabled" people).

Coming back to the OP's question, one must surmise that it's a commercial decision by CS that they don't want to provide a discount to 26-30 year old passengers.

Despite charging very high fares, they sell out every berth on most trains, and they are reliant on a substantial taxpayer subsidy. So they're not in any rush to give discounts they're not obliged to provide.

 

[Haywain]

So TS are subject to exactly the same obligation as the DfT in this respect - to ensure that their franchise agreements contain terms requiring the acceptance of the "discount schemes" (i.e. Railcards) specified in the Act.

However, I presume it is deemed that 26-30 Railcards aren't for "young" people, hence they aren't one of the categories of mandated Railcards (for "young, elderly or disabled" people).

In this respect I think the argument would be that the wording refers only to the railcards that existed at the time that the legislation was enacted and could not apply to products that were created at a later date.

 

[Watershed]

In this respect I think the argument would be that the wording refers only to the railcards that existed at the time that the legislation was enacted and could not apply to products that were created at a later date.

That's no doubt the argument in favour of that interpretation - although the wording of the legislation only refers to discount schemes (which could be done by showing proof of age at the time of travel or purchase, for example) rather than Railcards in particular.

Applying the interpretation you suggest would create somewhat of a grey area if any of those Railcards were to be changed or merged.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The level of discount for accepted railcards isn’t the same either, Disabled has a much better discount than Senior

 

[Watershed]

The level of discount for accepted railcards isn’t the same either, Disabled has a much better discount than Senior

The percentage discount is exactly the same (33.4%) so I'm not sure what you mean here. Disabled Railcards don't have time restrictions like the Senior Railcard does, if that's what you mean? Though the restrictions wouldn't be relevant to Caledonian Sleeper journeys.

 

[Railguy1]

The 26-30 railcard website could be improved. One page is pretty clear, and linked below:

Travel times & tickets - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

But the FAQ page is very misleading unless people read ALL the relevant FAQs:

Validity FAQs - 26-30 Railcard

www.26-30railcard.co.uk

Which train companies give Railcard discounts?​

Your Railcard is accepted by all the Train Companies who operate Passenger Railway Services within England, Scotland and Wales.

Railcards do not give discounts on Eurostar services, Charter services, and Heritage Railways unless state otherwise.

Can I use my Railcard on any Train Company?​

Your Railcard is accepted by all the Train Companies who operate Passenger Railway Services within England, Scotland and Wales.

Railcards do not give discounts on Eurostar services, Charter services, and Heritage Railways unless state otherwise.

Can I use my Railcard on Sleeper Trains?​

Caledonian Sleeper service (between Scotland and London): Discounts don't apply on tickets for travel in Sleeper or Seated accommodation with a route Caledonian Sleeper only. See Caledonian Sleeper website for further information on fares and tickets.

The first two FAQs should make a note about sleeper services with a link to the relevant information in my view.

 

[MrJeeves]

Would CS actually deny travel with a 26-30 discounted flexible ticket and accompanying seated reservation?

 

[Hadders]

Would CS actually deny travel with a 26-30 discounted flexible ticket and accompanying seated reservation?

If it's an Any Permitted flexible ticket with a 26-30 Railcard discount applied then as far as I know they're required to accept it. Trainline will sell such a ticket.

 

[Andrew1395]

The 1993 act specified the railcards mandated on franchised. For example the Network Railcard was not mandated. The 1993 act has been amended several times, and will be again with the creation of GBR. To date the mandatory railcards have not changed to include products created since that time. Such as the two together railcard or the 26-30 railcard. Both of which are marketing innovations that could be withdrawn by RDG.

 

[crablab]

Both of which are marketing innovations that could be withdrawn by RDG.

I think "innovation" is doing some heavy lifting there...

 

[gordonthemoron]

The percentage discount is exactly the same (33.4%) so I'm not sure what you mean here. Disabled Railcards don't have time restrictions like the Senior Railcard does, if that's what you mean? Though the restrictions wouldn't be relevant to Caledonian Sleeper journeys.

The first photo is two people with I disabled railcard, the second is two people with two senior railcards

 

[MrJeeves]

The first photo is two people with I disabled railcard, the second is two people with two senior railcards

I think this is the same issue as with 16-25 Railcards, where dual occupancy cabins don't get a discount, while two cabins each at solo occupancy will be discounted.

Often this makes buying two cabins cheaper than just one, so I don't understand the logic by CS here.

 

[Haywain]

I think this is the same issue as with 16-25 Railcards, where dual occupancy cabins don't get a discount, while two cabins each at solo occupancy will be discounted.

That's correct, only Disabled Railcard holders get a discount on Twin products.

 

[Railguy1]

Was it known at the time, when the 26-30 railcard was announced, that it was not mandated by law in the 1993 act and are there any plans to ”fix” that?

 

[Watershed]

Was it known at the time, when the 26-30 railcard was announced, that it was not mandated by law in the 1993 act and are there any plans to ”fix” that?

I doubt it was considered, and if it was, it would probably be deemed that the intent of the law is purely to protect the availability of a 'social' discount for those who need it most.

 

[Haywain]

Was it known at the time, when the 26-30 railcard was announced, that it was not mandated by law in the 1993 act and are there any plans to ”fix” that?

I would say it was certainly known.