What's the point in ticket barriers at stations?

[Requeststop]

You have stations with secondary entrances with barriers but not manned, with the staff at the main barriers. If you have issues you talk with the staff via a camera.

For example Cheltenham Spa.

Also in Truro.
I think also that Truro is the only station within Cornwall with barriers, though not to sure about Newquay. (I avoid NQY as much as possible) The barriers are open and unmanned in the late evening. Not sure as to what time they become unmanned. I suppose it does help with ensuring passengers have a ticket to travel. My experience on GWR and XC in Cornwall is that there are regular inspections of tickets as you travel up and down the county.

 

[tsr]

Or the guard could just refuse to listen to you and issue a UFN therefore giving you 21 days in which to pay plus the oppurtunity to appeal. That is what should happen IMO if a prosecution is not warranted and a PF cannot be issued.

It would be lovely to think that's a good move, but it's more likely to get the guard punched, to be honest. And if not, how do you get accurate details from a fare evader who is already angry at being asked to pay anything at all, let alone the Anytime fare, when you have two minutes to the next unstaffed village station, where they're going to get off the train anyway? This is reality in most of the places where these sorts of things happen.

I've had people try to start arguments about a price difference of maybe 20-30 pence against the fare they're used to. It's really not worth it. A decent guard will be able to negotiate at least some money out of most people, rather than allowing them an excuse for their wallet to clam up, or worse.

 

[gingerheid]

Drives me mad when the (valid) ticket doesn't work.

Happened to me a London tube station recently and it was unstaffed so I'm stood there like an idiot. Had to double click in the end just to get out.

I've found lack of staff at tube stations with barriers that don't take your ticket to be a problem recently, even once at Liverpool Street!!! What are you supposed to do? I try two gates, shout for staff three times, and then force the barrier if there's still no staff in sight.

Is there no requirement to have staff at gatelines? It feels like there should be!

 

[mmh]

Barriers on the Overground East anglia lines and silverlink reduced ticketless travel from 20% to 2%

Of course, as is usual with statistics like this, there's no way of knowing that.

 

[Antman]

I've found lack of staff at tube stations with barriers that don't take your ticket to be a problem recently, even once at Liverpool Street!!! What are you supposed to do? I try two gates, shout for staff three times, and then force the barrier if there's still no staff in sight.

Is there no requirement to have staff at gatelines? It feels like there should be!

I agree that gate lines should have to be staffed and that does seem to be the case with most TOC's, somebody with a perfectly valid ticket that won't open the barrier shouldn't have to go round looking for a member of staff and there are obviously potential safety issues.

 

[Tio Terry]

There’s a lot of people, usually with bikes, who get on at Worcester Park and Stoneleigh and off at Ewell West, none of which have barriers, who then cycle in to Epsom! Especially Epsom College!

 

[Kite159]

Also in Truro.
I think also that Truro is the only station within Cornwall with barriers, though not to sure about Newquay. (I avoid NQY as much as possible) The barriers are open and unmanned in the late evening. Not sure as to what time they become unmanned. I suppose it does help with ensuring passengers have a ticket to travel. My experience on GWR and XC in Cornwall is that there are regular inspections of tickets as you travel up and down the county.

No barriers at Newquay, I suspect during high summer there is a manual block checking/selling tickets before you can board/exit.

 

[TurbostarFan]

It would be lovely to think that's a good move, but it's more likely to get the guard punched, to be honest. And if not, how do you get accurate details from a fare evader who is already angry at being asked to pay anything at all, let alone the Anytime fare, when you have two minutes to the next unstaffed village station, where they're going to get off the train anyway? This is reality in most of the places where these sorts of things happen.

I've had people try to start arguments about a price difference of maybe 20-30 pence against the fare they're used to. It's really not worth it. A decent guard will be able to negotiate at least some money out of most people, rather than allowing them an excuse for their wallet to clam up, or worse.

Fair point but why not issue the UFN and then accept partial payment towards it? If you haven't got time till the next station, then it is another thing. In which case it's best to just take something towards the fare, give the fare evader a warning and kick the fare evader off at the next station.

 

[trainophile]

Also in Truro.
I think also that Truro is the only station within Cornwall with barriers, though not to sure about Newquay. (I avoid NQY as much as possible) The barriers are open and unmanned in the late evening. Not sure as to what time they become unmanned. I suppose it does help with ensuring passengers have a ticket to travel. My experience on GWR and XC in Cornwall is that there are regular inspections of tickets as you travel up and down the county.

Oh dear, I'm going to Truro in July with a Freedom of Devon & Cornwall 3in7 Rover ticket. I hope it doesn't get eaten by the machine at the barriers if there's no-one on the gates!

 

[iainbhx]

Oh dear, I'm going to Truro in July with a Freedom of Devon & Cornwall 3in7 Rover ticket. I hope it doesn't get eaten by the machine at the barriers if there's no-one on the gates!

It just won't work and get rejected, I had one last summer and every set of barriers rejected it.

 

[trainophile]

It just won't work and get rejected, I had one last summer and every set of barriers rejected it.

I’ll just have to climb over then, if there’s no-one around .

 

[6Gman]

It just won't work and get rejected, I had one last summer and every set of barriers rejected it.

To be fair why would anybody think a ticket called "Freedom of Cornwall" would be valid in Truro?

(The West Midlands Day Ranger doesn't work the barriers at ... Birmingham New Street. Same thing applies ...)

 

[atraindriver]

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[atraindriver]

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[Craig2601]

Huntingdon used to have a set of barriers on the northbound platform that weren’t accessible when I used them with staff passes from another first franchise - had to use the CCTV camera at the gate.

 

[gnolife]

I once saw a Ticket Inspector on Scotrail go for ths method of giving in to the demand for a off-peak ticket, but before handing it over, wrote 'NOT VALID AT THIS TIME' in block capitals, and left the passenger to get caught at the barrier at GLQ

 

[Bletchleyite]

There already is a surcharge as such - the NRCoT say that, if you aren't issued with a Penalty Fare and don't have your details taken for prosecution, you will still have to pay the undiscounted Anytime (Day) Single.

Which isn't a surcharge if that's what you wanted in the first place. And is wildly different on different TOCs - on Euston to Manchester on a Saturday it would be a whacking penalty, but on some Northern rural routes it would barely be anything.

On trains where tickets are sold on board I'd go for either a 10% uplift or a flat £5, but sell the ticket that would have been sold at the ticket office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I once saw a Ticket Inspector on Scotrail go for ths method of giving in to the demand for a off-peak ticket, but before handing it over, wrote 'NOT VALID AT THIS TIME' in block capitals, and left the passenger to get caught at the barrier at GLQ

Because of their lack of ability to prosecute, ScotRail need to be more clever - this is just one example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've found lack of staff at tube stations with barriers that don't take your ticket to be a problem recently, even once at Liverpool Street!!! What are you supposed to do? I try two gates, shout for staff three times, and then force the barrier if there's still no staff in sight.

Is there no requirement to have staff at gatelines? It feels like there should be!

There is a legal requirement for gatelines to be monitored. This is normally by staff at the gateline, but it can be by CCTV and remote control. I have found issues with TfL not manning a gateline, though, and ended up pushing through, which sounded a load of alarms but nobody noticed.

One thing I find to be an issue is that now there is mostly no manual gate, having been replaced with wide gates, it can be hard to see where the staff are. In my view the FirstGroup approach of putting them in high-visibility jackets is good, but I'd also insist on a large sign stating "STAFF ASSISTANCE" above or alongside where they stand.

 

[atraindriver]

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[Metal_gee_man]

There ought to be an automatic small penalty (say 50p or £1) added to tickets bought on the train when boarding at a station that has ticket buying facilities. I see loads of (sadly usually youngsters) getting on right at the front in the hope of the guard not reaching them before they get off one stop later, and when he does they always seem to have to buy a ticket from him. A small surcharge might be enough to deter them from taking the risk.

Whilst I agree it'd be some sort of a deterant if the fare was higher on the train, my station has a TVM that only accepts cards (if it had money in it someone would break it open) and not everyone has a debit card, so it wouldn't work, ultimately the only way to deal with the problem country-wide is employ a safety critical guard with ticket selling and enforcement powers for all trains, paired up with an enforcement officer who isn't safety critical! A 12 car train could be smashed out much easier, whilst working in pairs makes the situation safer! It'll cost TOCs but the penalty fares and extra ticket revenue might actually cover the cost and make passengers all times of day or night feel safer, I can comfortably say many guards don't check tickets beyond 7.30 - 8pm in fear of the hassle it'll produce! Double teaming would solve many of the problems, hey it'd be nice to actually see someone checking tickets on SE metro services which appears to me to be a free for all free travel central

 

[Antman]

There is a legal requirement for gatelines to be monitored. This is normally by staff at the gateline, but it can be by CCTV and remote control. I have found issues with TfL not manning a gateline, though, and ended up pushing through, which sounded a load of alarms but nobody noticed.

One thing I find to be an issue is that now there is mostly no manual gate, having been replaced with wide gates, it can be hard to see where the staff are. In my view the FirstGroup approach of putting them in high-visibility jackets is good, but I'd also insist on a large sign stating "STAFF ASSISTANCE" above or alongside where they stand.

I don't think monitoring gatelines by CCTV is good enough, somebody sat in an office somewhere is likely to be doing other things and certainly won't be sat staring constantly at the monitor and may miss something. Also fare dodgers are likely to force the gates open if there are no staff probably damaging them in the process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would restrict the staff to standing at that one space though, surely? At the moment if a staffer sees an issue further along the gateline they can go to that gate and deal with the issue there rather than the customer having to make their way to the assistance point.

The problem is that they usually don't see the issue due to the crowd, and so they can't deal with it. Most issues involve rejected tickets, issues like someone trapped or a ticket incorrectly swallowed are much rarer.

Far, far better for passengers to just go to the sign if they see "seek assistance" and not faff with their own gate.

So yes, staff should stand in one clearly marked place unless dealing with an emergency, and once said emergency is dealt with return to that place. It's precisely how it used to be done when the "wide gate" was manual, and it works much, much better. Mind you when the railway thinks people wandering round with iPads flogging tickets is better than a ticket office (it isn't)...

 

[sheff1]

I've found lack of staff at tube stations with barriers that don't take your ticket to be a problem recently, even once at Liverpool Street!!! What are you supposed to do?

Interesting that you mention Liverpool St as that is the only tube station I have ever had the problem at. What did I do - I tailgated someone through the wide gate .

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Personally I don't see the point in charging standard fares and no Railcard on board. Some end up paying it, others Scrabble for a last minute purchase on their phone, others wait until they get to the other end and use the ticket machines next to the barriers in which case they will buy whatever they want and still benefit from the Railcard and cheap day fares. That I think is unfair on those I have caught on board

 

[6Gman]

Personally I don't see the point in charging standard fares and no Railcard on board. Some end up paying it, others Scrabble for a last minute purchase on their phone, others wait until they get to the other end and use the ticket machines next to the barriers in which case they will buy whatever they want and still benefit from the Railcard and cheap day fares. That I think is unfair on those I have caught on board

It is presumably meant as a deterrent. And, like most deterrents, it is inconsistent in its effect.

 

[atraindriver]

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[TurbostarFan]

Personally I don't see the point in charging standard fares and no Railcard on board. Some end up paying it, others Scrabble for a last minute purchase on their phone, others wait until they get to the other end and use the ticket machines next to the barriers in which case they will buy whatever they want and still benefit from the Railcard and cheap day fares. That I think is unfair on those I have caught on board

Why not just report people who refuse to buy from you for a charge to court? That might make them think twice about doing it again.

 

[trainophile]

Who is responsible for programming the barriers? Is it done by individual stations?

Asking because the ones at Wigan Wallgate never accept tickets that involve changing from or to Wigan North Western. I don’t even try now. The guys on the barriers are ever so nice, we usually have a joke about it not liking long journeys.

At Hereford any tickets including a Virgin train don’t work either, but most others do.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Who is responsible for programming the barriers? Is it done by individual stations?

Asking because the ones at Wigan Wallgate never accept tickets that involve changing from or to Wigan North Western. I don’t even try now. The guys on the barriers are ever so nice, we usually have a joke about it not liking long journeys.

At Hereford any tickets including a Virgin train don’t work either, but most others do.

I believe that it is the responsibility of the organisation who manage the station: whether it is a TOC or Network Rail. On that note the barriers at Norwich (usually) work fine but the ticket office's equipment has a fault which means that no information is written onto the magstripe of any ticket sold there. This creates a lot of extra work for the Gateline staff, fortunately Greater Anglia always have their gatelines staffed.