Whatever happened to meet the manager events ?

[Big Jumby 74]

Can you give a couple of examples of helpful suggestions that made a difference?

A couple from my time:
The 2004 SWT timetable re write was largely a success, but with any such work and the complicated network in question, there were a few areas that were soon in need of further adjustment due to increasing demand at the time.
The 07.10 Haslemere to Waterloo, originally 10 car 444 was within a few months seen to be inadequate, to the effect that many people wishing to join (and stand) at both Guildford and Worplesdon, simply could not get on the train. As a result of observations (to confirm or otherwise) by a number of Managers (myself included) over a period of time, this train was rediagrammed (not without consequence elsewhere) to run as a 12 car 450. This got up the noses of a minority, but the railways was (is) there to move a majority of people who wish to travel, at the times THEY wish top travel.
Similarly, it became apparent from complaints/MTM's and further investigation, that there was a longer than average gap in services stopping at Worplesdon in the early evening peak, and so a stop was initiated in the 17.00 ex Waterloo.
Some time later the 0824 Pompey & S to Waterloo had become an issue with crowding, whereby intending passengers from Haslemere couldn't get a seat, and so after some discussion (amongst us Managers, Planning/Train Crew etc) we came up with a solution, that was cost free to boot (unit mileage/crews) to run an additional 0908 Haslemere to Guildford that attached to the aforementioned 0824 ex Ports & S at Guildford.
The origin of the complaint about the 0824 Ports & S service (a resident of Haslemere, I will say no more) had hinted in his original letter (of complaint) that he doubted we (SWT) would be able to do anything by 'adjusting train workings' (not his exact words, as I forget exactly what he did say, but it was something along those lines), and so after replanning the diagrams (stock and crew) and putting this in to place at the next available PA date, it was with some surprise that we received a further letter to thank us for what we had done, and to say he didn't think (originally) that we would be able to do anything, but our changes had in fact made his (and that of his fellow travellers) journey far better.
I probably still have a copy of that letter somewhere, not that I would ever make it public, but it was a rare moment when someone who had complained to us in writing, had the balls to thank us in writing for our efforts. That, in planning terms, is virtually unheard of, take if from me! So yes, just occasionally, examples of changes made for the (overall) good can be quoted.

Sadly this forum is very anti-manager at time

I agree, yes, it can be. But that's a symptom of SM in my view, I may be wrong. Too many out there forget that many, if not most, Managers (in my time at least) were mostly ex Grade staff, worked their way up. Only in the late 70's did we start to see Management Trainees (ex University types). Some proved their worth IMHO, others not so, it was what it was!

 

[Haywain]

But that's a symptom of SM

I think it's an attitude in the unionised rail industry as well.

 

[yorksrob]

A decade ago, our local station manager in West Yorkshire would have regular meetings, although I'm not 100% sure if these were just with 'friends of the station' groups or genuinely open. Although he was very customer focussed, and indeed lived locally and commuted by train, for these meetings he was adamant that 'I don't do timetables' which would obviously have frustrated some of the expectations of some of the posters above.

Yes, problematic timetables are one of my key issues.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2024 ==

There was an article in a 1960s-70s Modern Railways about a management position, on the Southern Region Oxted lines and embracing seemingly many stations, which was fully 'out and about', meeting passengers, both at stations and in trains. Traditional railway management garb of the era, with a bowler hat. Much of the work inevitably covered both peaks. Possibly something of a trial the magazine was asked to cover. I wonder how long it lasted.

Gerald Fiennes used to advocate a similar approach.

Certainly an excellent idea, although I'm not sure how it would have survived managements intention to close most of the Oxted lines. Perhaps that's why it was ditched.

 

[Eloise]

I can't help but feel some people attend these events to try and catch managers out with some obscure questions they know they won't have the answer to. I've been there myself and had someone say "This one will catch you out". It's always comical though when you do have the answer or know of the issue.

That said constructive meetings can and do happen. Changes to the timetable take time, and you can't please all the people all the time. I've sat with people and User Groups and created connections and even given them more calls at some stations. Even internally I set expectations that "it won't kick in for nine months but my team will do it". Very pleasing when you get a call out the blue the day it goes live with a simple "you said you would and you did, thank you".

The mind boggles over some of the FOI requests that cross my desk too. I'm all for being open and honest but some of them... I really don't what someone does with the answers. And yes, I can honestly say I do give all the information to answer the query, it explains why some things take even longer as it's a divert from the day to day job sometimes.

 

[Egg Centric]

The mind boggles over some of the FOI requests that cross my desk too. I'm all for being open and honest but some of them... I really don't what someone does with the answers.

I really appreciated the earlier answers in this thread when I asked for an example of constructive queries. Dare I risk asking about these... less than constructive ones?

Feel free to DM me if you'd rather not have it in public. Egg Centric ain't no snitch

 

[Eloise]

I won't go into specifics either here or in DM but I get regular ones, I believe a lot of that is people wanting the info as it's deemed confidential so feels special to have it. Most of the info I send out is publicly available anyway in some way or form. I have only declined if we genuinely don't hold the information and only once have I asked FOI to consider redacting vast swathes of something. Not as it was confidential, but the info sought was in the middle of a much larger, and more interesting in some ways, document but the requestor asked for something very specific and nothing more. I can't remember what happened in the end with that.

Some requests I understand as the requestor, who I never see by the way, I just get the blurb, states "I'm looking into doing this so I want this information please". Easy peasy. Others are one liners "give me this". Fine. But others are just really odd requests for really random information sometimes going years back. Our FOI team do a sterling job in my opinion, I only see the ones relevant to me.

It's amazing how the polite ones get turned round as quick as possible though and the "give me this or I will escalate" tend to go close to the mandated timescale, if not thrown back for some clarification of the exact ask.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There was an article in a 1960s-70s Modern Railways about a management position, on the Southern Region Oxted lines and embracing seemingly many stations, which was fully 'out and about', meeting passengers, both at stations and in trains. Traditional railway management garb of the era, with a bowler hat. Much of the work inevitably covered both peaks. Possibly something of a trial the magazine was asked to cover. I wonder how long it lasted.

That was a trial of the Area Manager concept - another layer between Station Managers and "Divisions" - and as we know the Areas - particularly the "super" areas replaced the Divisions eventually , with a major role in functional management as opposed to just liasion.

For my own part - we did quite frequent "Meet the Managers" at a wide range of stations , not just Euston - and I them generally useful - we had identified somescope for a significant uplift for calls at Bushey on the main line (there was a local campaign over it) , so it was a joy to advise the frequently asked questions about it - nothing less than a 30 min service all day , and every day. (which was probably more than they expected ! - and very well used)

[

 

[paul1609]

Good luck getting the DfT along.

A quick Google returned SWR, SE, GWR, and Northern websites for Meet the Manager dates. Of those only SWR actually had a date listed (Salisbury, 23rd July) and seem to be holding them regularly. SE and Northern simply said 'dates will appear when confirmed' type message and GWR promises that 'our meetings for 2022 will be confirmed shortly.', which perhaps suggests they aren't coming back any time soon!

I think some TOCs do host an online or twittter version of the event but I do agree with you that an in-person meeting would be far better.

There was a Southeastern one at Charing Cross when I passed through about a month ago. I suspect they have just paused for a summer break and will restart when everyones back from the South of France.

 

[DarloRich]

What sort of minutiae do you have in mind?
Having done ‘Customer Surgeries’ as they were sometimes known and Meet The Manager sessions in various parts of the network it was sometimes surprising that passengers would come along especially to ask things such as why the rear destination blind on a train that they had travelled on a few months ago was incorrect. This might then be followed by a question about whether we had thought about re-opening a branch line that was closed in the 1930s. Meanwhile there was a queue out the door of folk who perhaps had more meaningful questions about connectivity or ticket office opening times.
I always went along as well briefed as possible with mountains of timetables, diagrams, fares manuals and the last few months’ Control Logs. All in paper form ‘back in the day’.

Minutiae is perhaps the wrong word but the sessions were absolutely set up for questions like: Do you like the new trains? Aren't the vinyls lovely? Do you like the new seat covers? Are there too many announcements?

They will not go into anything commercial, policy, political, or operational which is where the real changes & improvements live. My view is they want to be seen talking to passengers but don't actually want to listen to passengers or make any changes!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2024 ==

Being long retired I suppose that I am not necessarily aware of current passenger behaviour but back in the old days I've been out 'on the platform' in circumstances when thousands of people are being held up but never had any real problems. A bit of verbal abuse but nothing else.

Agreed - even when things have been dire people, generally, know how to behave.

We are regularly reminded on this forums how many rail staff are proud of their jobs and dedicated to providing high standards of customer service as a 'guard', booking clerk or whatever. What makes you think that many managers don't want to do the same? Throughout my career I often reflected that I first started responding to public complaints/comments as a CO1 (lowest grade clerk) but was still dealing with them as a Station Manager, Operations Manager, 'Head of ...’, Director and so on. They are great for keeping you grounded. Not only in the office but at a MTM session, on the platform, on the train, meeting with stakeholders, giving talks and hosting visits for local groups, schools, colleges, MPs, Ministers, journalists, etc.

I don't for one moment think that "managers" set out to cause trouble. I am a "manager" and I don't go to work looking for ways to cock things up! I am sure they are proud of the work they do and both think they are doing a good job and want to do a good job.

The problem is I don't think the real top brass ever get out into the field and talk to the passengers beyond the most managed situations. Once a quarter they should make unannounced field days and just travel. Be visible, engage staff and passengers and find out what life is REALLY like. Personally I would get the complaints log and start at the most complained point and work down from there!

Visibility is really important in leadership. The doesn't mean a monthly video briefing or teams call. It means being out and about and being seen in the flesh by the troops!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Minutiae is perhaps the wrong word but the sessions were absolutely set up for questions like: Do you like the new trains? Aren't the vinyls lovely? Do you like the new seat covers? Are there too many announcements?

They will not go into anything commercial, policy, political, or operational which is where the real changes & improvements live. My view is they want to be seen talking to passengers but don't actually want to listen to passengers or make any changes!

Things have clearly changed if it’s now Managers ‘asking’ the customers about the trains. “Don’t like the Class 80x? Never mind, we’ll ask the DfT to provide us something different.” Not sure about that.

Short of having the Head of GBR and the Secretary of State for Transport fronting up every MTM event they are not really going to be very effective at changing ‘policy’.

If you wan’t to ask a ‘political’ question why not go along to your constituency MP’s surgery instead? In a few weeks it may well be that they are a member of the ruling party.

For ‘operational’ matters an MTM format is ideal and, at least in my experience, often helpful for both parties.

I would never claim to have been Top Brass myself but am pleased to note in my own travelling that it is still not unusual to see MDs out and about with their name badges on engaging with passengers and colleagues of all grades (not hiding away).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

"Management by walking round" - ! - and often at antisocial hours can be educational and worthwhile. See Gerald Fiennes ........

 

[CharlieSpotted]

What makes you think, the managers want to meet their customers, or hear their complaints. If you don't put yourself in a position to hear, we'll, you don't have any complaints. There was an article in the paper a couple of weeks ago, highlighting how more and more businesses are introducing chatbots, and that way, the complaints go away. Even more important if you are measured on complaints.

Of course, it all depends how you set them up, but chatbots really shouldn't be used to dissuade people who want to make a complaint or register their dissatisfaction.

We use one where I work and it's sole purpose is to triage the simplest requests that the user might be able to resolve themselves by, eg, reading a short article. As soon as it becomes clear the user can't resolve it themselves, or the moment a user asks for it, you get a human. This is, I think, the only truly valid use case for them. Make it any more complicated than that and it can be a truly awful and frustrating experience for customers.

 

[Hadders]

Just passed through Birmingham New Street and stumbled across a Meet the Manager event on the main concourse.

Representatives from Network Rail, Avanti, WMT and XC present. I had a good chat with the NR representative about lots of issues, not all related to Birmingham New Street!

 

[Dr Hoo]

Sounds like a good chance to throw your hat into the ring for the vacant Chairman role @Hadders .

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder if Avanti got a grilling !

 

[Spaceship323]

Greater Anglia have a meet the manager at Liverpool Street this week, just heard it advertised on the tannoy

 

[skyhigh]

I really appreciated the earlier answers in this thread when I asked for an example of constructive queries. Dare I risk asking about these... less than constructive ones?

Feel free to DM me if you'd rather not have it in public. Egg Centric ain't no snitch

WhatDoTheyKnow can be interesting reading. Sometimes you'll get the same person asking the same very-specific-and-niche thing phrased slightly differently each time and getting shirty when it's declined.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2024 ==

Such as the one I saw while back asking for 12 years of back copies of all the Weekly Operating Notices for an entire region.

 

[marcosatham110]

"Management by walking round" - ! - and often at antisocial hours can be educational and worthwhile. See Gerald Fiennes ........

"Management by walking round is a great approach to stay connected with your team. It fosters open communication, allows real-time problem solving, and builds stronger workplace relationships."

 

[yorksrob]

"Management by walking round is a great approach to stay connected with your team. It fosters open communication, allows real-time problem solving, and builds stronger workplace relationships."

And presumably to stay connected with your customers as well.

 

[Trainman40083]

And presumably to stay connected with your customers as well.

Yes, you listen to the real and perceived needs of your stakeholders, and either meet or exceed this expectations, and everyone is happy.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, you listen to the real and perceived needs of your stakeholders, and either meet or exceed this expectations, and everyone is happy.

Or at least manage expectations !

 

[Trainman40083]

Or at least manage expectations !

Now you are asking a lot..

 

[yorksrob]

Now you are asking a lot..

Well, I don't expect too much nowadays !

 

[Bikeman78]

Before the goings on of 2020, we used to have "meet the manager" events quite frequently at Leeds. These were generally well advertised and included representatives from LNER (or whatever version it was at the time), NR, Northern, TPE etc.

2020 seems a long time ago and whilst business might not exactly be booming, there are a lot of passengers now using the railway, however I've not noticed one of these for ages.

Will they ever happen again - and perhaps DfT ought to be represented as well in future.

I remember when Chris Gibb was MD of Wales and Borders. If he travelled on a train, he would walk through and talk to the passengers. Did he do the same at Virgin?

 

[yorksrob]

I remember when Chris Gibb was MD of Wales and Borders. If he travelled on a train, he would walk through and talk to the passengers. Did he do the same at Virgin?

That's a nice touch if they do. Never experienced it myself on any TOC (including BR).

 

[Trainman40083]

I remember when Chris Gibb was MD of Wales and Borders. If he travelled on a train, he would walk through and talk to the passengers. Did he do the same at Virgin?

If you don't employ "Look, go see" how on earth do you know what is really going on?

 

[GordonT]

If you don't employ "Look, go see" how on earth do you know what is really going on?

A long retired Edinburgh driver of my acquaintance reminisced of an occasion when his General Manager (Chris Green) in company with BR Chairman (Robert Reid) joined him unannounced at Waverley in the cab of a London for a trip to Newcastle. Around Widdrington or some such place the train was delayed by adverse signals but not brought to a stand. Mr Green immediately on his mobile phone seeking an explanation.

 

[Taunton]

I remember when Chris Gibb was MD of Wales and Borders. If he travelled on a train, he would walk through and talk to the passengers. Did he do the same at Virgin?

I was once on EasyJet when Stelios, then the well-known Chief Exec, was on board, headed to some business meeting. But he walked down the aircraft while we were going along and stopped and chatted to anyone who wanted to. He had a lapel badge so all would know who it was.

I think someone posted "Management by Walking Around" (MWA) above. Both walking around and talking to those who pay you money.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

A couple from my time:
The 2004 SWT timetable re write was largely a success, but with any such work and the complicated network in question, there were a few areas that were soon in need of further adjustment due to increasing demand at the time.
The 07.10 Haslemere to Waterloo, originally 10 car 444 was within a few months seen to be inadequate, to the effect that many people wishing to join (and stand) at both Guildford and Worplesdon, simply could not get on the train. As a result of observations (to confirm or otherwise) by a number of Managers (myself included) over a period of time, this train was rediagrammed (not without consequence elsewhere) to run as a 12 car 450. This got up the noses of a minority, but the railways was (is) there to move a majority of people who wish to travel, at the times THEY wish top travel.
Similarly, it became apparent from complaints/MTM's and further investigation, that there was a longer than average gap in services stopping at Worplesdon in the early evening peak, and so a stop was initiated in the 17.00 ex Waterloo.
Some time later the 0824 Pompey & S to Waterloo had become an issue with crowding, whereby intending passengers from Haslemere couldn't get a seat, and so after some discussion (amongst us Managers, Planning/Train Crew etc) we came up with a solution, that was cost free to boot (unit mileage/crews) to run an additional 0908 Haslemere to Guildford that attached to the aforementioned 0824 ex Ports & S at Guildford.
The origin of the complaint about the 0824 Ports & S service (a resident of Haslemere, I will say no more) had hinted in his original letter (of complaint) that he doubted we (SWT) would be able to do anything by 'adjusting train workings' (not his exact words, as I forget exactly what he did say, but it was something along those lines), and so after replanning the diagrams (stock and crew) and putting this in to place at the next available PA date, it was with some surprise that we received a further letter to thank us for what we had done, and to say he didn't think (originally) that we would be able to do anything, but our changes had in fact made his (and that of his fellow travellers) journey far better.
I probably still have a copy of that letter somewhere, not that I would ever make it public, but it was a rare moment when someone who had complained to us in writing, had the balls to thank us in writing for our efforts. That, in planning terms, is virtually unheard of, take if from me! So yes, just occasionally, examples of changes made for the (overall) good can be quoted.


I agree, yes, it can be. But that's a symptom of SM in my view, I may be wrong. Too many out there forget that many, if not most, Managers (in my time at least) were mostly ex Grade staff, worked their way up. Only in the late 70's did we start to see Management Trainees (ex University types). Some proved their worth IMHO, others not so, it was what it was!

Were there no plans to add a further sixth car to the 444s?

 

[Trainman40083]

Were there no plans to add a further sixth car to the 444s?

Would.12 car 444s fit in all the platforms.