What would have appropriate in this scenario?

[vrbarreto]

Yesterday I was travelling back to London on the Thameslink service towards East Croydon from Luton.

Somewhere near Harpenden, an inspector came through asking for tickets.

I showed him the return portion of the Boundary Zone 6 to Luton and my Oyster Gold record card and he was happy with that.

My work colleague (who was getting of at St Pancras) after much faffing couldn't find the return portion of his ticket.. He had the outbound ticket for some reason. The inspector asked him if he had the receipt for the ticket and he did. He then managed to find his return portion which he had somehow lost on the floor. He had a Luton to Boundary zone 3 and the inspector got his machine out and checked his oyster.

I have 2 questions.

a) Would the receipt have any bearing on what the inspector would have done if the ticket hadn't been found? I would have thought that a receipt was just proof that a ticket for a certain day and train journey had been bought and that was it?

b) Would a penalty fare have been the likely outcome if there had been no receipt but with the receipt it would have just been a single to Boundary zone 3? (can the handheld machines sell these tickets?)

Anyway it stopped him witthering his conspiracy theories for a good 5 minutes so was a welcome distraction.. Also it's the second time he's managed to mislay his ticket.. The last time being in the ticket office as he bought it!

 

[bb21]

The RPI was possibly exercising his discretion.

Receipt or not, a Penalty Fare is possible. In a funny way I actually think a Penalty Fare may do him good and get his acts together.

 

[najaB]

I have 2 questions.

a) Would the receipt have any bearing on what the inspector would have done if the ticket hadn't been found? I would have thought that a receipt was just proof that a ticket for a certain day and train journey had been bought and that was it?

You are correct. "I swear that I had a ticket" is no ticket, receipt or not.

b) Would a penalty fare have been the likely outcome if there had been no receipt but with the receipt it would have just been a single to Boundary zone 3? (can the handheld machines sell these tickets?)

With or without the receipt a penalty fare was a possibility.

 

[vrbarreto]

Thank you for the replies.. He's such a scatter brain that I suspect he will fall foul of this at some point.. He'll only charge the penalty fare back to the company anyway.

What surprised me most was the request to see the receipt to be honest.. Never heard anyone asked for that before.

 

[najaB]

What surprised me most was the request to see the receipt to be honest.. Never heard anyone asked for that before.

I suspect it was an attempt to see if he was being genuine or a chancer.

 

[bb21]

Thank you for the replies.. He's such a scatter brain that I suspect he will fall foul of this at some point.. He'll only charge the penalty fare back to the company anyway.

In that case he better make sure that it won't be classed as some type of misconduct.

 

[vrbarreto]

In that case he better make sure that it won't be classed as some type of misconduct.

It'll go in the same classification as those who forget to pay the congestion charge or the toll charge over the Thames.

I can only think of it being a big problem if he does it too many times and Thameslink think he's doing on purpose and take it further.

Interestingly our company uses a third party to book tickets.. I've managed to avoid them as they can't issue Boundary Zone to Station tickets.. Seems a bit strange. So me me and my work colleague by them at the local ticket hall.. Luckily the staff there know he is scatty and have in the past kept a ticket for him that he has dropped on the way out.

Strangely enough every time I've seen the inspector on this particular train everyone in my carriage had a valid ticket

 

[najaB]

Strangely enough every time I've seen the inspector on this particular train everyone in my carriage had a valid ticket

It's a 'sign of the times' that everyone having a valid ticket is seen as something exceptional.

 

[anme]

It's a 'sign of the times' that everyone having a valid ticket is seen as something exceptional.

Why is that a "sign of the times"?

 

[najaB]

Why is that a "sign of the times"?

Because everyone should have a ticket. If it's exceptional for that to be the case it means that fare evasion is seen as 'normal', rather than exceptional.

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite a rare example ... An RPI on Thameslink north!

(I haven't seen any for months)

 

[vrbarreto]

It was Thameslink going South and there are quite often RPI staff on that particular train. I've not seen many at all going North though.... I travel the East Croydon -> Luton route twice a week and have had my ticket checked once in the last couple of months...

 

[pitdiver]

The only time I've seen an RPI north of Luton is when they get their shopping in our local supermarket. Perhaps they are thinking of giving customers penalty fares for not having their own bags.

 

[jon0844]

Are there enough RPIs? Now more stations have gatelines and they're in use more often, many RPIs that used to come through the trains are now positioned at the gates instead.

This could mean a reduction in on train checks (which is wrong IMO as it means not being able to enforce first class, or check for doughnutting etc).

I often see RPIs on trains but they don't do checks, just travel from one station to the next, presumably to help out at another gateline.

I wonder if GoVia is as proactive on fare evasion as First was. First seemed to be very keen to check tickets, as well as introducing gates in the first place, and did the plain clothed checks that I am pretty sure no longer happens.

 

[vrbarreto]

2 chaps regularly get on in Luton.. They have those little cabin trolley cases with them most of the time.. The train up to St Pancras is pretty quiet so it's easy for them to do their checks..

What's doughnutting btw?

 

[swt_passenger]

What's doughnutting btw?

Buying short tickets that will get through the barriers at either end of the route, but with nothing in the middle...

 

[cuccir]

What's doughnutting btw?

Buying tickets for either end of your journey but not holding one for the middle bit - so there's a 'hole in the middle'.


EG

Travel Luton - St Pancras
Buy a Luton - Luton Airport ticket and a West Hampsted - St Pancras ticket

The idea is that you get through the barriers or any checks at your departure station, and through the barriers or checks at your arrival station, relying on no-one checking on the train.

From time-to-time long-term 'doughnutters' will be found who've been doing this for years with season tickets and this can result in a full blown fraud prosecution rather than a prosecution under railway ticketing legislation.

 

[vrbarreto]

Ah I see thank you.. Like that lawyer then?

 

[Fare-Cop]

Buying tickets for either end of your journey but not holding one for the middle bit - so there's a 'hole in the middle'.


EG

Travel Luton - St Pancras
Buy a Luton - Luton Airport ticket and a West Hampsted - St Pancras ticket

The idea is that you get through the barriers or any checks at your departure station, and through the barriers or checks at your arrival station, relying on no-one checking on the train.

From time-to-time long-term 'doughnutters' will be found who've been doing this for years with season tickets and this can result in a full blown fraud prosecution rather than a prosecution under railway ticketing legislation.

Doughnut - also called a 'Polo' or 'Dumbell' in some areas

 

[Envy123]

Are there enough RPIs? Now more stations have gatelines and they're in use more often, many RPIs that used to come through the trains are now positioned at the gates instead.

This could mean a reduction in on train checks (which is wrong IMO as it means not being able to enforce first class, or check for doughnutting etc).

I often see RPIs on trains but they don't do checks, just travel from one station to the next, presumably to help out at another gateline.

I wonder if GoVia is as proactive on fare evasion as First was. First seemed to be very keen to check tickets, as well as introducing gates in the first place, and did the plain clothed checks that I am pretty sure no longer happens.

Since Govia took over, I only encountered 2 RPIs on the Moorgate services so far. One of them was in my carriage when we were approaching Ally Pally.

 

[talltim]

GOing OT slightly, a friend was an RPI on TL North a long time ago. Such a long time ago he was the first person I knew with a mobile phone, a company issued

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder if GoVia is as proactive on fare evasion as First was. First seemed to be very keen to check tickets, as well as introducing gates in the first place, and did the plain clothed checks that I am pretty sure no longer happens.

A clue: where does the revenue go?

Which leads to an odd concept - GTR are presumably under contract to manage revenue protection, possibly by a certain number of RPI shifts. But this would have to be audited by DfT, presumably by checking that those RPI shifts were taking place, perhaps by Inspectors inspecting the RPIs, let's call them RPIIs. (A retired DfT contract manager may be able to confirm...)

Perhaps GTR are not doing all their RPI shifts to save cash, and hoping not to be caught by RPIIs? Oh the irony.

(The above is pure fantasy, obvs, although I sort of want it to be true).

 

[Fare-Cop]

GOing OT slightly, a friend was an RPI on TL North a long time ago. Such a long time ago he was the first person I knew with a mobile phone, a company issued

The first BR one I was issued was before the 'brick' illustrated. My first was an Alcatel version of that type, you had a flimsy little aerial that slid in and out and very erratic signal.

The first I saw used on train was being carried by an ops manager. It was like a 6 volt motorcycle battery with a Bakelite handset on top. Big carrying handle and weighed a ton!

How things change eh?

 

[vrbarreto]

Since Govia took over, I only encountered 2 RPIs on the Moorgate services so far. One of them was in my carriage when we were approaching Ally Pally.

Ticket checked this morning Northbound near Harpenden.. Strangely all the ticket checks I have encountered Northbound or Southbound have been near Harpenden.. spookylll

 

[greatkingrat]

A clue: where does the revenue go?

Which leads to an odd concept - GTR are presumably under contract to manage revenue protection, possibly by a certain number of RPI shifts. But this would have to be audited by DfT, presumably by checking that those RPI shifts were taking place, perhaps by Inspectors inspecting the RPIs, let's call them RPIIs. (A retired DfT contract manager may be able to confirm...)

Perhaps GTR are not doing all their RPI shifts to save cash, and hoping not to be caught by RPIIs? Oh the irony.

(The above is pure fantasy, obvs, although I sort of want it to be true).

Don't know about GTR but that is actually more or less how the London Overground concession works.