What will future Chiltern stock look like?

[absolutelymilk]

I realise it might be a long way off, but anyone have any thoughts on what stock Chiltern might order or obtain through cascades? The franchise runs to Dec 2021 so presumably any new stock will not be ordered until then.

But when it is, would it be bimodes to prepare for eventual electrification, and would Chiltern want a full fleet replacement or are the 172s good enough to last until say 2030?

Alternatively, is there any stock that Chiltern could get through cascades, e.g. the 172s from the GOBLIN once the 710s start operating.

 

[Clansman]

Chiltern's stock is well aged compared to other TOCs, so the likelihood of any cascades is slim, and would be likely to replace the Mk3s or the Turbos - assuming the line is still under diesel traction. Although there's no way to tell if any trains will be cascaded to them, I would bet on the Mk3s being replaced by cascaded Meridians and the Turbos being replaced by Turbostars. I've always thought that in terms of the 172s, that a swap deal with London Midland for their 170s in exchange for the whole 172 fleet down from London Overground and Chiltern, would be the most appropriate option maintenance and operational wise. Although new electric or bi-mode stock is the most probable scenario. Everywhere else is getting the new train treatment so it's only a matter of time before it's Chiltern too.

 

[superkev]

Marylebone is London's only remaining non electrified terminus so I would hope any future trains would be electric.
K

 

[JonathanH]

Surely the more logical path is to get hold of spare diesel stock, 170s from Anglia and 172s from London Overground as they become available and eliminate the Mark 3 stock as soon as possible. Swapping out 172s for 170s with London Midland might enable a more common fleet.

Then, look to replace Turbos in the longer term as part of a future franchise agreement.

 

[NickBucks]

I am sure that the DfT will be thinking long and hard about this before the new franchise is re-advertised.
The Marylebone - High Wycombe - Oxford & Birmingham route would seem ideal for bi-modes. The extension of the Marylebone /Aylesbury service via HW to MK in due course should not be a problem. The main issue will be the Marylebone to Aylesbury line via Amersham. Here we have a partially electrified route ( albeit LUL third rail). So the options would appear to be a) continue with a pure DMU fleet with life extended Turbos or other cascaded stock b) extend the LUL third rail to Aylesbury and pass this part of the franchise back to LUL. The new S-Class stock is no slower than the 165 fleet but would LUL have enough stock to cover ? I doubt if LUL, given their financial constraints ( I think the Croxley link to Watford High Street has been pushed back again for lack of funds) would be interested. Aylesbury is a massive housing development area however and metro type stock could solve some overcrowding issues; c) go for full 25K electrification but surely this would be unlikely.

I understand that Chiltern's fleet planning is such that stock has to run on both the High Wycombe and Amersham lines and has to be trip cock fitted. Would this be a problem for cascaded stock other than 168 / 170 variants and also would it be cost effective to equip a smallish fleet of bi-modes with the same ?

 

[CosherB]

Marylebone is London's only remaining non electrified terminus so I would hope any future trains would be electric.
K

Eh? How does that make sense? hock:

 

[absolutelymilk]

Eh? How does that make sense? hock:

I presume SuperKev means that Marylebone is likely to be electrified in the next twenty years so it makes sense to order bimode trains if they will not spend that long working the line while it is diesel only.

 

[takno]

I presume SuperKev means that Marylebone is likely to be electrified in the next twenty years so it makes sense to order bimode trains if they will not spend that long working the line while it is diesel only.

Sounds like an optimistic assumption given the ever-lengthening backlog of electrification that's already planned/promised

 

[CyrusWuff]

Surely the more logical path is to get hold of spare diesel stock, 170s from Anglia and 172s from London Overground as they become available and eliminate the Mark 3 stock as soon as possible.

Given the amount of time and money that has been invested in the Mark 3s, I think it's reasonable to assume they'll remain with Chiltern to the end of the current franchise, and probably beyond. They may be over 40 years old, but they're still serviceable 110mph vehicles.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether they can still be used with TDM equipped locos following the latest mods, or if they're restricted to AAR locos.

 

[alexl92]

Given the amount of time and money that has been invested in the Mark 3s, I think it's reasonable to assume they'll remain with Chiltern to the end of the current franchise, and probably beyond. They may be over 40 years old, but they're still serviceable 110mph vehicles.

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether they can still be used with TDM equipped locos following the latest mods, or if they're restricted to AAR locos.

The other advantage of keeping Mk3s is that if/when the line does get electrified whilst they are still I traffic (unlikely, I know) you can always just switch from 68s to 88s as traction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could, if they like LHCS, perhaps consider a follow-on order of CAF Mk5 coaches.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Wasn't there something recently about Chiltern putting out an ITT for more loco-hauled stock?

 

[dgl]

They could, if they like LHCS, perhaps consider a follow-on order of CAF Mk5 coaches.

In a lot of ways quite sensible, you get stock of a known (well hopefully by then) quality and known compatibility/reliability with the 68's.

Basically if everything goes OK with TPE then a sensible move.

Mabey another option is that if the trans-pennine route is electrified then maybe TPE get new EMU's and Chiltern take on their LHCS f there is enough.

 

[Clansman]

In a lot of ways quite sensible, you get stock of a known (well hopefully by then) quality and known compatibility/reliability with the 68's.

Basically if everything goes OK with TPE then a sensible move.

Mabey another option is that if the trans-pennine route is electrified then maybe TPE get new EMU's and Chiltern take on their LHCS f there is enough.

Beat me to it. Totally forgot about cascades of new stock, rather than existing ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mabey another option is that if the trans-pennine route is electrified then maybe TPE get new EMU's and Chiltern take on their LHCS f there is enough.

That may be a good idea - while there are benefits of LHCS for specialist operations like Sleepers (though I actually would still have gone for EMUs for that), LHCS only otherwise really has significant benefit for self-powered trains to avoid noise, vibration etc. The Southern has known for years that the EMU is the way to do electric trains.

 

[hwl]

Beat me to it. Totally forgot about cascades of new stock, rather than existing ones.

Or potentially Porterbrooks 769 or (similar based 455 variant) for the Marylebone - Aylesbury services or Aylesbury - Princes Risborough. If the centre 4th rail is bonded to the running rails like is elsewhere (Watford DCs, Richmond Branch etc.) the Marylebone - Amersham running could be run on DC rather than Diesel, this would then free up more units for elsewhere on Chiltern.

 

[philthetube]

Or potentially Porterbrooks 769 or (similar based 455 variant) for the Marylebone - Aylesbury services or Aylesbury - Princes Risborough. If the centre 4th rail is bonded to the running rails like is elsewhere (Watford DCs, Richmond Branch etc.) the Marylebone - Amersham running could be run on DC rather than Diesel, this would then free up more units for elsewhere on Chiltern.

Harrow

 

[Driverme10]

At Chiltern there has been alot of rumours about what new rolling stock they may get etc, In the short term, rumour has it that they may get a couple of extra mk3 sets from Greater Anglia or even some 180s from fgw. However I did have a chat with someone from senior management who said that it would be very unlikely they would be getting any more dmus and that they were looking to eventually replace the mk3s with the caf mk5s to run with stadler 68s and later once electrified 88s these being for the mainline services to bham and Oxford. The rest of the fleet was likely to be formed also of stadler but the bi mode trains similar to those Greater anglia are getting as they can run self powered, dc (met line) and ac when the line gets electrified. However any new train orders would be something that would come in with the new franchise, thus would depend alot on who wins it?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Marylebone being unelectrified will only become more and more of a problem in future. There are already complaints about diesel fumes nearby and these could only get worse if train services intensify using traditional DMUs or locomotives. Ultimately, the line should and will be electrified fully at 25kV, with the suburban EMUs fitted with DC shoegear so that they can still share the Met line tracks, but this is clearly a fair bit away. Electrifying it sooner would mean diverting resources away from non-London places which arguably will need it just as much or more, as those other lines are far more important for that region than the Chiltern route is for London.

The Chiltern route might well be suited for something quite novel. I'm not sure about BEMU, given the total lack of 25kV AC electrification that you realistically need for charging the trains up. However, it might be a not terrible testing ground for Alstom's hydrogen technology. Chiltern trains don't venture too far away from their home depots but there are enough of them that the cost of installing the fuelling infrastructure might be justified. I very much disagree with the notion of hydrogen being a future fuel, due to its inherent and inescapable efficiency problems, but it might do the trick of solving the emissions problems in London without costing the earth. Obviously all of the current DMUs on the route could then be cascaded away onto routes where bi-modes, BEMUs and hydrogen trains won't be as good an option.

 

[swt_passenger]

...In the short term, rumour has it that they may get a couple of extra mk3 sets from Greater Anglia or even some 180s from fgw.

Impossible. Deal already done with GC, published in franchise agreements and widely reported.

 

[Mordac]

Impossible. Deal already done with GC, published in franchise agreements and widely reported.

Could get the ones from Hull Trains though.

 

[222ben]

What's preventing the LU route being dually electrified with both 25kv and 750v DC?
(the bit shared with Chiltern, I mean?)

 

[najaB]

What's preventing the LU route being dually electrified with both 25kv and 750v DC?

Nothing prevents it, but it's my understanding that it requires a lot more work be done on immunising the signalling system from traction current interference.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Exactly like it does now, minus the yellow ends...

 

[NotATrainspott]

What's preventing the LU route being dually electrified with both 25kv and 750v DC?
(the bit shared with Chiltern, I mean?)

It would cost a lot for remarkably little gain. LU will always depend on DC third rail so the 25kV AC overheads would only ever be used by NR services. The only NR services on the shared track are commuter trains where 750V DC isn't a major limitation on power. It'll always be cheaper just to fit DC third/fourth rail shoes to a standard Chiltern EMU than to convert or dual electrify the tracks, with no real gain from doing so.

 

[Mikey C]

It would cost a lot for remarkably little gain. LU will always depend on DC third rail so the 25kV AC overheads would only ever be used by NR services. The only NR services on the shared track are commuter trains where 750V DC isn't a major limitation on power. It'll always be cheaper just to fit DC third/fourth rail shoes to a standard Chiltern EMU than to convert or dual electrify the tracks, with no real gain from doing so.

It would be messy when the line into Marylebone is electrified at 25KV, as trains would have to change to DC at Harrow on the Hill and then back to AC at Amersham.

 

[NotATrainspott]

It would be messy when the line into Marylebone is electrified at 25KV, as trains would have to change to DC at Harrow on the Hill and then back to AC at Amersham.

While hardly ideal, it's not an insurmountable problem. Thameslink is demonstrating rapid AC-DC switchovers at 24tph. Changeovers are also likely to become more common as sections of third rail track are converted to AC OHLE - I know that Basingstoke-Southampton isn't going at all well but the general concept still stands.

It's also within the realms of possibility that the service pattern on the shared section of track could change too. After electrification, Chiltern will be able to provide a properly outer suburban commuter service on the line, somewhat reducing the need for the Underground to do it as well. If Rickmansworth can be four-tracked finally, then it may be the case that Chiltern would replace the LUL services beyond there. A fast electric 6-8 car EMU to Marylebone, possibly including a redone cross-platform interchange before the lines diverge, would be a reasonable replacement for a direct but slow-ish service all the way to the City. In the far future if there are some paths on an east-west Crossrail line that serves the City then these would leave little reason for the Met to continue beyond Rickmansworth.

 

[tbtc]

Hopefully any replacement fleet can be arranged soon because there are nineteen "original" 168s plus another nine from TPE that are relatively go-anywhere 100mph DMUs that could fit into a number of other fleets - especially given that a lot of them are three/four coaches long - e.g handy for routes like Nottingham - Cardiff.

The 165s though... that opens the usual argument about whether they would be okay for various lines that they aren't cleared for (but likely aren't cleared for because nobody thought it was worth doing the paperwork to arrange). At least you know that FGW are a potential destination.

I wouldn't be surprised if electrification inside Greater London is proposed before long, with bi-modes necessary to deal with the unnelectrified sections until they get closer to Birmingham/ Oxford etc.

 

[NickBucks]

Okay it is probably the heat but I will make a suggestion only to be knocked down. Chiltern has no need to serve stations south of Amersham- LUL can do this with no problem. HS2 runs almost parallel to the Chiltern line until Aylesbury. If HS2 proves to be underused or if paths meant for freight on the relief lines could be made available what about an express service using 25AC from Euston to Great Missenden and on through Aylesbury to link with East- West ? HS2 and Chiltern are so close at Great Missenden that the additional track needed would be minimal. In the future it is likely that the Marylebone- Wycombe- Princes Risborough- Aylesbury- MK line is going to be electrified so the jigsaw clicks into place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I'm increasingly of the view that extending the electrification of the Met Line out to Aylesbury would make sense, leaving the line via HW for Chiltern.