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What was/is the best class design ever made?
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Drsatan
Established Member
The 180s are also very comfortable trains, even if they do break down a lot.
MCR247
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390s are great aswell
Daimler
Member
:roll:
If you look at designed for purpose:
33's : good for medium express and a better power starting point for the network than all the sluggish type 2s.
37's probably the best mixed traffic loco ever produced: out performed the GM deriviative Di 3 locos and out lived them.
HSTs a very good solution, which was intended to go to other regions after the ECML electrification which was a bitty late. Expensive fleet though, but more cost effective than motorways any day!
Brush's offerings: well the 31 needed re-engining with help of their rivals, the 47s could have also done with this: being "duff" at 2750hp and twice the price of Dp2s/ D400s plus the £4M repair job to derate them. The 56s too: not as good as the 59s. 60s not as reliable as first wished- but I don't know how they have rated up in true class availability / MPC through their life? Probably the best hauling power to weight and fuel consumption in the world though!
Most Units are a cramped catastrophy: 156s for example are no where near as comfy as old non air con stock , although they have proven reliable and pretty cheap.
oh and 90s which really took a hammering and did the network proud.
33's : good for medium express and a better power starting point for the network than all the sluggish type 2s.
37's probably the best mixed traffic loco ever produced: out performed the GM deriviative Di 3 locos and out lived them.
HSTs a very good solution, which was intended to go to other regions after the ECML electrification which was a bitty late. Expensive fleet though, but more cost effective than motorways any day!
Brush's offerings: well the 31 needed re-engining with help of their rivals, the 47s could have also done with this: being "duff" at 2750hp and twice the price of Dp2s/ D400s plus the £4M repair job to derate them. The 56s too: not as good as the 59s. 60s not as reliable as first wished- but I don't know how they have rated up in true class availability / MPC through their life? Probably the best hauling power to weight and fuel consumption in the world though!
Most Units are a cramped catastrophy: 156s for example are no where near as comfy as old non air con stock , although they have proven reliable and pretty cheap.
oh and 90s which really took a hammering and did the network proud.
91 + MK4!
I am an ECML man and out of all the trains I can pick to go on, its gonna have to be a 91. MK4 Mallard refurbish is alot better than any MK3 example I have ridden on, in all aspects. Plus the 43, yeah they are great etc. but on a 225 there is only one loco moving it all from London to Scotland, at HST-beating times!! BR did great with the HST, but they bettered it with the 225.
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extreme q vaporizer
I am an ECML man and out of all the trains I can pick to go on, its gonna have to be a 91. MK4 Mallard refurbish is alot better than any MK3 example I have ridden on, in all aspects. Plus the 43, yeah they are great etc. but on a 225 there is only one loco moving it all from London to Scotland, at HST-beating times!! BR did great with the HST, but they bettered it with the 225.
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extreme q vaporizer
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TGV blows away anything else including any diesel,how can someone say a class 37? My opinion is the only train in the UK that would come anywhere near a TGV is the APT only because it was designed a long time ago. As for UK built the Blue Pullman or HST
Techniquest
Veteran Member
Without doubt, the HST has to be one of the best designs ever. They still look new even though the oldest power cars are 34 years old. Still nice and reliable working on top link services as they have been for 34 years. Two very good reasons, IMO, for them to be classed as one of the most, if not the most, successful BR design ever. 
And yes, I did leave bias out when thinking about this. Second entry for best class design would be Class 37, still working hard very regularly 50 years on. Yes the 20s work still but not as regularly or as widespread as the 37s.
And yes, I did leave bias out when thinking about this. Second entry for best class design would be Class 37, still working hard very regularly 50 years on. Yes the 20s work still but not as regularly or as widespread as the 37s.
I would say HST's, class 37's and LUL 1938 stock, expected to run for a couple more years on the Isle of Wight still making them nearly 80 years old and LUL A stock on the Metropolitan Line don't think many people have said any LU stock maybe because the title says best class ?
Lampshade
Established Member
370 
If you're talking elegance, combining power, attractiveness and function, it just has to be Deltics. However, they do fall short on a number of other key design characteristics, such as ruggedness and simplicity!
Sadly, if we're talking about a simple, rugged design, combining reliability, power, flexibility and longevity, then the boring old duff has to be the best ever.
Sadly, if we're talking about a simple, rugged design, combining reliability, power, flexibility and longevity, then the boring old duff has to be the best ever.
Fincra5
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I'd have to say that the 390 si one of the best classes too.
CarterUSM
Established Member
I think a lot of the sprinter family of units are excellent and generally reliable, certainly if they work routes for which they were designed.
HST, simply the best thing BR ever produced (although I declare an interest as a member of the 125 Group). Revolutionised passenger operations overnight soon after introduction. Has often been equalled, but never surpassed in this country. Maybe the TGV Sud-Est did the same in France, or the Shinkansen in Japan.
In Europe, the most comfortable train I've ever travelled on was an ICE1. High speed rail the way it ought to be, part of the network. It also had 3-a-side compartments in second class, was ice-smooth and had seats almost as good as a MkI.
Best current British loco would probably be the Class 60, simply because the things look like bouncers. Tough, solid and you don't mess with them. They'll shift anything.
Best loco of all time... A4 for passenger services (a bit unreliable, but the records speak for themselves) and 9F for goods. Maybe modern locos and units are better, but for the time, they were the very best that ever rolled out of a British workshop.
As for the worst... Well, it looks like a bus and it bends. However, Dellas are pretty foul. Apart from having seats like planks, there is virtually no air movement inside. I've sometimes spent two hours almost stifled inside one of them. They're the exact opposite of the ICEs, the worst of German engineering.
In Europe, the most comfortable train I've ever travelled on was an ICE1. High speed rail the way it ought to be, part of the network. It also had 3-a-side compartments in second class, was ice-smooth and had seats almost as good as a MkI.
Best current British loco would probably be the Class 60, simply because the things look like bouncers. Tough, solid and you don't mess with them. They'll shift anything.
Best loco of all time... A4 for passenger services (a bit unreliable, but the records speak for themselves) and 9F for goods. Maybe modern locos and units are better, but for the time, they were the very best that ever rolled out of a British workshop.
As for the worst... Well, it looks like a bus and it bends. However, Dellas are pretty foul. Apart from having seats like planks, there is virtually no air movement inside. I've sometimes spent two hours almost stifled inside one of them. They're the exact opposite of the ICEs, the worst of German engineering.
The Hst is definitely the best Britain has ever seen. Revolutionized express services on the ECML and GWML. 37's are good workhorses and versatile, simple and rugged and were at home on heavy freight services or express passenger trains. The GM family of 59/66's have changed the face of modern freight around the globe. DMU's the best would be 158's (when the air conditioning is working and their isnt a smell of s*** coming from the toilet) because they're at home at semi-fast services and stopping services. Also i think the 222's are the best modern DMU. Comfortable and quite open in my opinion and also quite quick. EMU's it has to be the 750v family of slamdoors! Simple, rugged, comfortable and extremely reliable! Also I would say the 444's arent bad either nice 2+2 seating some around tables and are quite comfortable.
(Just my opinion btw 
)
(Just my opinion btw
)
Royston Vasey
Established Member
You cannot possibly criticise the 47s in the grand scheme of things. What you refer to are some teething problems, but for such a huge and versatile fleet to be in service for over 40 years is testament to their success.
You mention the Class 50s and 55s and their prototypes... the Class 50s all needed to be re-engineered half way through their careers too due to unreliability, and the Deltics lasted only 20 years. All of those are gone, yet 47s are still active in service on the mainline and their frames still active as 57s.
Even if they were twice the price (I have not heard that quoted before, have you a source?) they have provided tremendous value. The 47s are undoubtedly the most successful diesel loco of all time, certainly in this country (Class 43 HSTs not being locos of course
)You cannot possibly criticise the 47s in the grand scheme of things. What you refer to are some teething problems, but for such a huge and versatile fleet to be in service for over 40 years is testament to their success.
You mention the Class 50s and 55s and their prototypes... the Class 50s all needed to be re-engineered half way through their careers too due to unreliability, and the Deltics lasted only 20 years. All of those are gone, yet 47s are still active in service on the mainline and their frames still active as 57s.
Even if they were twice the price (I have not heard that quoted before, have you a source?) they have provided tremendous value. The 47s are undoubtedly the most successful diesel loco of all time, certainly in this country (Class 43 HSTs not being locos of course
As for a workhorse, cost and reliability a class 66 blows a 47 away
Royston Vasey
Established Member
The Class 66 was designed 30 years later, what do you expect? :roll:
Regarding classes 47 , 37 and others of the Br era. Lots of these were built in large numbers. However how long in BR days could a loco sit awaiting repair? Some locos sat for months and were covered by another loco from a vast pool, a lot of which probably stood idle for large periods of time or coming out of repair. Today I would guess that there is a lot more freight moved by a lot less locos. Todays freight companies would not tolerate any loco being out of service for any length of time. Each locomotive is there to earn and that is what it does. Today's locos put in more haulage hours than those of yesteryear. I do not think that many of the classes mentioned would be capable of putting in the hours required by todays freight operaters.
TGV
Member
I've worked on TGV's which are pretty good (!), and on the ECML, I prefer travelling behind a 91, but if I'm honest and objective, the "BEST" train the UK has simply must be the HST. It saved us from a pretty dire situation and 30 odd years later, albeit with new engines, they're still proving hard to beat. I can't think of any other passenger stock that has the combination of comfort, speed and versatility as an HST.
As for "did the job as designed" then the 91s needed a re-engineer.
But yeah, really good sets and a good example of public-private development to give improvements never surpassed in the privatised railway.
The APT ended up being pretty reliable, but still a prototype. Best train we "never" had!
The question was "What was, is the best class design ever made" you have just agreed to my point! so no need to do an "eye roll"
Aictos
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Talking of the HST, imagine if First placed the order for the 9 car 222s and use them to cascade some HSTs to other routes or even if Virgin didn't go for 220s/221s but rather went for a mix of 5, 7 and 9 car Class 222s to use for both Virgin Cross Country and Virgin West Coast?
So yeah while the HST is a world leader for high speed trains, the 222s could easily have been the 21st century successor so they get my vote, not forgetting of course they can run practically anyway as they have diesel engines.
So yeah while the HST is a world leader for high speed trains, the 222s could easily have been the 21st century successor so they get my vote, not forgetting of course they can run practically anyway as they have diesel engines.
Vulcan
Member
I think I already put a reply on this thread, but I've had another thought on the matter.
08 shunter
These are as old as the 20s and 37s, if not older in a lot of cases, they are on their original engines and many are still going strong. There are also many in use in industry and preservation.
08 shunter
These are as old as the 20s and 37s, if not older in a lot of cases, they are on their original engines and many are still going strong. There are also many in use in industry and preservation.
generalvegitable
Member
weren't they built to an LMS design?
ailsa
Member
I believe the 08s were a development of a design English Electric produced for the LMS.
Good point about bringing in shunters.
Best British shunter ever would be a choice between the 08, the 5700 and the Jinty. The GWR and BR built 800 and something Panniers, of a design virtually unchanged between 1929 and 1950. Apart from seeing use in virtually every GWR yard, they spread to other regions after 1948 and a batch even ended up in Scotland. London Transport bought quite a few of them, and many ended up on industrial lines as well.
Maybe we're too easily impressed by clag, thrash and horsepower. Something that just gets on and does the job usually makes a great design.
Best British shunter ever would be a choice between the 08, the 5700 and the Jinty. The GWR and BR built 800 and something Panniers, of a design virtually unchanged between 1929 and 1950. Apart from seeing use in virtually every GWR yard, they spread to other regions after 1948 and a batch even ended up in Scotland. London Transport bought quite a few of them, and many ended up on industrial lines as well.
Maybe we're too easily impressed by clag, thrash and horsepower. Something that just gets on and does the job usually makes a great design.
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