What trains will Southeastern order to replace the Networkers?

[rmHawk765]

As I'm sure you're aware, Southeastern's aging Networkers are set to be replaced by new trains, which will likely be arriving in the late 2020s - early 2030s.

What I'm wondering, though, is just what trains they will use to replace the Networkers.

Will they use an Aventra? Stadler Metro? Desiro City? AT200 (a'la DC 385?) Or will they order a new design from scratch that we haven't seen yet?

Me personally - I think SE will be pushing for Desiro Cities as much as possible. They already have the 707s, which are not going anywhere any time soon, and it would be good for fleet efficiency to order similar trains if possible. The only stumbling block here is I'm not sure if Siemens still have the parts/means to make a Desiro City - it's been a good few years since the 707 and 717 were made. If they can't get a Desiro City, I honestly think they might opt for a brand-new platform of train.

Why? Well, Aventras and 777s - Stadler Metros - have both had severe reliability issues to the point where they are even worse than the 30-year old Networkers (especially the Aventras), and the 385 is a few years old so whether another AT200 can be made is uncertain, similar to the Desiro City situation.

What do you think? Let's speculate and discuss.

As far as I know and as mentioned already, new Aventras are no longer being designed and manufactured. Though Alstom obviously has newer platforms which may be considered. The problem with the Aventras was that their reliability was a bit of a mixed bag. The 710s which currently perform somewhat similar roles were delayed by almost 2 years. But the very similar 345s had little issues. Now both perform absolutely fine. However, the 701s were and sort of still are a reliability disaster, and to all intents and purposes would have been most similar to any sort of Aventras SE might have ordered, which I think is what may really put SE off selecting Alstom.

As for Siemens, well I think there's a pretty good chance they might get chosen. The Desiro City units might have bad seats but other than that they're very good trains for metro-style services like the ones SE is ordering trains for, of course. They have been tried and tested in the southern region and their interiors overall are fantastic for metro-style services. More comfortable seats and arguably a slightly less clinical interior would make them perfect really.

Hitachi? Well I've never tried the AT200s myself, but to my knowledge they are very reliable. I think simply because they haven't been tried and tested outside of Scotland, SE probably won't have them as a first choice.

Finally Stadler, and here I think it again depends on whether SE wants to try something new or not. The 745s and 755s had a pretty smooth introduction, and are very reliable - but the arguably more relevant 777s and 555s are sort of the opposite. And even so the 777s and 555s perform different roles to what the Networkers do at the minute.

Overall my preference and also what I think is mostly likely are some Desiros. They're tried and tested in the southern region and are very well designed for metro services.

 

[Transilien]

Overall my preference and also what I think is mostly likely are some Desiros. They're tried and tested in the southern region and are very well designed for metro services.

Do Desiros offer level boarding? In this day and age all trains really should be procured with level boarding, particularly inner-suburban stock.

 

[465fan]

Prepare to replace the whole Southeastern fleet.
- Order a set of 8 car units, with gangway doors, and with a Metro layout. One universal and one standard toilet, some cycle spaces, provision for level boarding, and a 2+2 layout with better seats than 700s.
- Order a set of 8 car units, with gangway doors, but with a Mainline layout. Two universal and two standard toilets, some cycle spaces, option for level boarding but unlikely with the work needed out in the provinces, and then a 2+2 layout that incorporates tables, plug sockets and the like. Basically a 375 sort of interior, with some airline seating, but walk through and the like.
- Then order a set of 4 car units, which you call 'auxiliary' units. They'd be identical to the Metro sets, so gangwayed, single universal toilet, limited cycle space or luggage capacity but the 2+2 metro layout for seating and circulation space.

That way, you can run the entire network all day using 8 car fixed units, and add the auxiliary 4 car units at peak times. So, a train arrives at Dartford and couples onto an auxiliary unit at about 15:30 and returns to London. As they sort of do now, same at Orpington, or even out in the countryside (Ramsgate, Ashford). That way, your depots (Ramsgate, Slade Green, Gillingham) end up being homogenous.

And the 4 car units can run around on the Sheppey, Medway Valley, Bromley North, and balance mileage out by running in pairs on some services or at weekends.

Massive cost savings in staff training, traction knowledge, spare parts. And then the 375s, 377s, 707s and the like are able to head off into the sunset to new operators. Southern quite notably, as it would re-release 387s, and the 707s could even go to somewhere like Great Northern, or be completely ripped apart and turned into battery / hybrid units for the West of England, as that investment would repay itself unlike a 769.

But don't order anything until there is a very clear determination on whether you're about to order a million more Aventra units to extend Crossrail out into Kent. Strategise accordingly and retain a portion of the 375 fleet for Metro work if absolutely required until the transition.

 

[rmHawk765]

Do Desiros offer level boarding? In this day and age all trains really should be procured with level boarding, particularly inner-suburban stock.

The 700s and 717s don't but I don't believe this was one of the requirements. Stadler doing it as standard is nice, but I feel Siemens could do the same if it is specified as a requirement.

 

[Mikey C]

Politically, there's zero chance an order of this size would go to a company with no UK operations like Stadler.

 

[Zomboid]

The 745s and 755s had a pretty smooth introduction, and are very reliable

The might be good now, but their introduction was terrible from what I remember.

 

[SolomonSouth]

The might be good now, but their introduction was terrible from what I remember.

Yep, I remember hearing about many failures with the Stadler units.

Politically, there's zero chance an order of this size would go to a company with no UK operations like Stadler.

Though politics may play a part, the important thing here is getting a fleet of reliable trains. Siemens would be best for this by far with Hitachi as a good second choice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2025 ==

As for Siemens, well I think there's a pretty good chance they might get chosen. The Desiro City units might have bad seats but other than that they're very good trains for metro-style services like the ones SE is ordering trains for, of course. They have been tried and tested in the southern region and their interiors overall are fantastic for metro-style services. More comfortable seats and arguably a slightly less clinical interior would make them perfect really.

Overall my preference and also what I think is mostly likely are some Desiros. They're tried and tested in the southern region and are very well designed for metro services.

I agree with your assessment, but the problem here is that the Desiro Cities may no longer be in production. The standard Desiros certainly aren't in production anymore.

 

[rmHawk765]

Yep, I remember hearing about many failures with the Stadler units.

Though politics may play a part, the important thing here is getting a fleet of reliable trains. Siemens would be best for this by far with Hitachi as a good second choice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Apr 2025 ==


I agree with your assessment, but the problem here is that the Desiro Cities may no longer be in production. The standard Desiros certainly aren't in production anymore.

Yeah but Siemens has other lines of Desiros, I'm sure one could be adapted. For example, the Desiro Verve, as mentioned previously:

Siemens current offering is the Desiro Verve, apparently. So if they go with Siemens I'd guess it'll be that.

 

[D365]

It has been reported that the ’new’ Alstom Adessia platform will offer level boarding.

 

[vuzzeho]

Yeah but Siemens has other lines of Desiros, I'm sure one could be adapted. For example, the Desiro Verve, as mentioned previously:

The Desiro Verve seems to be an intercity design - https://assets.new.siemens.com/siem...10d27b8a91307c/mo-desiro-verve-en-preview.pdf

 

[AlastairFraser]

Though politics may play a part, the important thing here is getting a fleet of reliable trains. Siemens would be best for this by far with Hitachi as a good second choice.

And I'm sure they'd be able to produce some Desiros at the Goole factory, with the new Tubes to keep the factory open in the interim.

 

[D365]

From the Networker withdrawals thread…

Hope they aren’t replaced with aventras as there just feels like there are too much aventra trains.

The new Southeastern rolling stock won’t be Aventra as I believe level boarding is stipulated. Alstom’s offering will be the ’Adessia’ units.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

From the Networker withdrawals thread…


The new Southeastern rolling stock won’t be Aventra as I believe level boarding is stipulated. Alstom’s offering will be the ’Adessia’ units.

Googled them. Hate them already.

 

[321362]

The new Southeastern rolling stock won’t be Aventra

Thank God. They seem to fail every day, especially the 710s, with issues either relating to the doors or to the pantograph.

 

[Zomboid]

Googled them. Hate them already.

Not sure what there is to hate about them.
They don't seem to exist exist yet, and the CGI is very "generic modern train".

 

[ScotGG]

With the way the public finances are perhaps don't expect any green light from the Treasury for any stock

 

[brad465]

With the way the public finances are perhaps don't expect any green light from the Treasury for any stock

Ironically the Treasury seem to be full of individuals who don't know the meaning of "long-term", "investment" and "long-term investment". Replacing any ageing fleet with a brand new fleet that is more efficient and capacious will give returns, plus if they are built in this country (even when by a foreign company), that's tax revenue and jobs, which is always good for gaining/retaining votes.

 

[RUK]

Not sure what there is to hate about them.
They don't seem to exist exist yet, and the CGI is very "generic modern train".

The Irish ones which are being built now look aesthetically a bit boring and “CAF-like” to me. They appear to have just re-branded their later X’Trapolis models as Adessia models. I personally prefer the aesthetics of the Aventras.

 

[MarkyT]

Not sure what there is to hate about them.
They don't seem to exist exist yet, and the CGI is very "generic modern train".

Within the 'Adessia' family it looks like trains of many kinds can be produced! Their publicity (link below) includes illustration of the recent 'X'trapolis' design for Ireland. That bodyshell might be a good basis for a UK train as it broadly matches UK loading gauge and provides level boarding at 3ft platforms. It looks like Alstom have been renaming their product lines; a few years ago everything was 'Coradia'.

Adessia commuter trains: The backbone of urban life

Alstom’s Adessia™ commuter transport solutions support urban ecosystems all over the world to grow sustainably, accommodate increasing numbers of commuters and alleviate traffic congestion. Building on its wealth of experience in delivering commuter train solutions, Alstom offers...

www.alstom.com

 

[Silent]

The Irish ones which are being built now look aesthetically a bit boring and “CAF-like” to me. They appear to have just re-branded their later X’Trapolis models as Adessia models. I personally prefer the aesthetics of the Aventras.

The aesthetics of adventras are good but everywhere that it’s just meh.

 

[signed]

Deleted, I was wrong

 

[MarkyT]

The aesthetics of adventras are good but everywhere that it’s just meh.

Good looking maybe and the trains were technically competent, but I really despise Aventras as they have only very recently locked large parts of the network out of level boarding for decades. It's really disappointing that Bombardier had just built a Movia with 3ft level boarding for London Underground in the form of the excellent S-stock, but between client and manufacturer they couldn't agree that it was a legitimate aspiration for mainline orders even after vehicles for level boarding at even lower platforms had been supplied successfully elsewhere in Europe.

 

[RUK]

It’s true that the Aventra’s narrow bodies are a downside of them which could hopefully be improved upon. If Southeastern have to go for 20-metre-long vehicles, hopefully that means that they won’t have to be as narrow as the Aventras are.

 

[Mikey C]

Good looking maybe and the trains were technically competent, but I really despise Aventras as they have only very recently locked large parts of the network out of level boarding for decades. It's really disappointing that Bombardier had just built a Movia with 3ft level boarding for London Underground in the form of the excellent S-stock, but between client and manufacturer they couldn't agree that it was a legitimate aspiration for mainline orders even after vehicles for level boarding at even lower platforms had been supplied successfully elsewhere in Europe.

Hardly an Aventra only issue, seeing that the same applies to the Desiros, CAFs and IETs as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good looking maybe and the trains were technically competent, but I really despise Aventras as they have only very recently locked large parts of the network out of level boarding for decades.

Aventras didn't do that. The contracts let for rolling stock for things like the Liz did that, and that had more to do with not wanting to modify the platforms at Heathrow than the choice of supplier. If Crossrail/TfL had tendered for 960mm floor they'd have got that.

The Aventra is quite a good train overall (even if I do think WMT have put one row too many in each coach) and I'm sure the low floor replacement (between-bogie drops I guess, as that's what most bar Stadler do?) will be too.

 

[Brubulus]

It’s true that the Aventra’s narrow bodies are a downside of them which could hopefully be improved upon. If Southeastern have to go for 20-metre-long vehicles, hopefully that means that they won’t have to be as narrow as the Aventras are.

The adessia is articulated, the coach length on a 5 car unit is 16M. A full length unit would be 15 coaches, which would be a lot. 7 coach half length units are more likely. (Can SE metro cope with 240M trains) If many routes can't deal with them, half length trains are more likely since much of the 200M network can support 225M with ASDO.

 

[Silent]

The adessia is articulated, the coach length on a 5 car unit is 16M. A full length unit would be 15 coaches, which would be a lot. 7 coach half length units are more likely. (Can SE metro cope with 240M trains) If many routes can't deal with them, half length trains are more likely since much of the 200M network can support 225M with ASDO.

That's almost as short as average tube train carraiges. Do shorter carraiges impact the speed?

 

[Zomboid]

Alstom claim that the platform is good for 200kmh, so presumably not

 

[MicroLithium]

That's almost as short as average tube train carraiges. Do shorter carraiges impact the speed?

Talgo do 13 metre carriages at 200mph

 

[Silent]

Talgo do 13 metre carriages at 200mph

Oh okay, I was just wondering as the faster trains in the UK usually have longer carraiges.