What to do with the Chiltern lines?

[Mgameing123]

West Hampstead - you'd have to have a station on the other side also (think Shibuya high level platforms!) - and choose between Met or Chiltern. Jubilee where it is - the island platform is admittedly very wide though. But busy!

The junction at Northolt Park is already grade separated to push Marylebone services onto outers (stoppers) and OOC services up the fasts. What we'd need is quadding to go on further, ideally until Gerrards Cross at least.

But it's a fair point overall - the Sudburys, Ruislip, Chesham, all these places are pretty quiet overall. The potential isn't huge, and house-building isn't booming. Where it is booming on the route, is Wembley, High Wycombe and Bicester, plus Aylesbury. And OOC of course / North Acton. Those are the growth areas.


I would typically agree but Stratford is/was the busiest service in the country, and a hub of its own. The West Anglia routes that terminate there are packed, and people walk to wherever, or disperse in all directions. This was not the case 15 years ago, but it was so even before Crossrail.

I would think OOC would be a similar situation - not any old suburban terminus but a new hub , and yes the majority onto Crossrail into town (note that employment is not universally walkable from everywhere - Marylebone being a strong example of onward need!) - but also the other way to Ealing and Heathrow, GWML, hopefully Overground etc.

The Sudbury’s don’t have high potential but it’s unfair that they are the least used stations in London because of poor service. A 2 car train every 15 minutes would definitely create more demand and relieve pressure from the Piccadilly Line. (Ik the section between Acton Town and Uxbridge isn’t the problem) but still could work if they do it right.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The junction at Northolt Park is already grade separated to push Marylebone services onto outers (stoppers) and OOC services up the fasts.

That was the original lay-out 120 years ago! Today the "fast" lines have been re-aligned at Northolt Junction to enable trains not stopping at South Ruislip to progress smoothly at a decent pace. The only route available now to and from the New North Line (aka the Wycombe Single) is from the down platform at South Ruislip.

 

[The Planner]

Obviously the idea is for when Old Oak Common gets built but we should remember this was the original Chiltern Metro plans.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2024 ==


Maybe after Old Oak Common it could work. This is the original plan for the London Suburban Stations.

What station stops are you having on these? Wembley, both Sudburys and Northolt Park? That takes 12 minutes to do that and get out of the way at Northolt Park Jn. Which leaves you 1 other path in that quarter hour, no more.

 

[mr_jrt]

4tph is what we need. Just make it a 2 car train at first then once demand comes we put longer trains. I’d also suggest building platforms at West Hempstead for Metropolitan and Chiltern lines where all trains will stop for interchange purposes.

Well over a decade ago I had a scribble....fun to see how developments over the intervening years literally moved the ground out from underneath my ideas.

 

[Mgameing123]

What station stops are you having on these? Wembley, both Sudburys and Northolt Park? That takes 12 minutes to do that and get out of the way at Northolt Park Jn. Which leaves you 1 other path in that quarter hour, no more.

If we build passing loops at The Sudbury’s at maybe Northolt Park it will give us more pathing options. The train could wait at Wembley Park for a train to overtake then at Northolt Park aswell. It will increase journey time but we will have to do it like that to make it possible.

 

[The Planner]

If we build passing loops at The Sudbury’s at maybe Northolt Park it will give us more pathing options. The train could wait at Wembley Park for a train to overtake then at Northolt Park aswell. It will increase journey time but we will have to do it like that to make it possible.

So it needs infrastructure to make work then.

 

[30907]

If we build passing loops at The Sudbury’s at maybe Northolt Park it will give us more pathing options. The train could wait at Wembley Park for a train to overtake then at Northolt Park aswell. It will increase journey time but we will have to do it like that to make it possible.

Leaving aside the practicalities, consider journey time.
Oxford Circus* to Sudbury and HR, best possible peak time 32min on Googlemaps
to Sudbury Town, 46min.
But the tube is every 5min, so generalised journey time is 48min.
just to match that, you need a half-hourly service from MYB - not an unreasonable demand, and could probably be timetabled, but it won't attract vast numbers of tube users.

*deliberately choice because it is roughly halfway between the two routes; most of Central London is arguably better served by the Piccadilly, but I am trying to be fair to Chiltern!

 

[MarkyT]

If we build passing loops at The Sudbury’s at maybe Northolt Park it will give us more pathing options. The train could wait at Wembley Park for a train to overtake then at Northolt Park aswell. It will increase journey time but we will have to do it like that to make it possible.

So it needs infrastructure to make work then.

Ideally, a segregated local line would include two or more station stops for reliable timetabled overtaking manouevres without affecting local or express journey times. Wembley stadium could be re-quaded then new tracks added to Sudbury and Harrow Road. The road underbridge there could carry 4 tracks but the island platform poses an obstacle so that station would need to be rebuilt with side platforms. Carrying on to Sudbury Hill Harrow, the road overbridges seem to allow 4 tracks, including the one at the station, but the platforms would need to be reconstructed to create space for the new local lines. Much further beyond there, extra tracks would be more difficult with a tunnel and development close to the tracks near Northolt Park. All in all, rather a lot of work to do it well.

 

[moonarrow458]

Given the amount of negativity on here regarding the Chiltern inner london stations in terms of usership levels, especially regarding the Sudburys of which a lot of people on here seem to want to close, i thought i would share my observations from a brief unofficial passenger count i did today (29/07) on a return journey from Marylebone to South Ruislip.

1410 Marylebone to High Wycombe (3 car 165)
Wembley Stadium - didnt count here
Sudbury Hill Harrow - 7 off, 2 on
Northolt Park - 10 off, 3 on
South Ruislip - 9 off, 6 on

Had to double back via West Ruislip on the way back due to the recent Chiltern cuts reducing South ruislip to 1tp2h in the Southbound Direction on weekday off peaks grrrrrrrr.

1518 High Wycombe to Marylebone (3 car 165)
West Ruislip - 5 off, 10 on
Northolt Park - 6 off, 7 on
Sudbury Hill Harrow - 1 off, 5 on
Wembley stadium - 13 off, 8 on

Obviously this is only a tiny snapshot of the overall services each day at these stations but i thought the usage at the inner london stations particularly on the way out was quite strong for a weekday offpeak, for stations which barely recieve 1tph often with large gaps in the peak and irregular calling patterns, with Sudbury Hill Harrow recieving no trains on weekends. So i can well imagine a clockface 2tph metro service (if well advertised to the local areas) could increase usage quite significantly given the untapped demand there is currently as a result of the abysmal service. Just look at the increases in usage when Angel Road was replaced by Meridian Water with a substantial service increase, resulting in Meridian Water getting 6x times the passenger usage Angel Road had.

I do also wonder whether there might be a fair bit of unrecorded fares from some of the inner london stations particularly if people are travelling between ungated stations which means that the passenger usage statistics don't accurately show real usage.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Given the amount of negativity on here regarding the Chiltern inner london stations in terms of usership levels, especially regarding the Sudburys of which a lot of people on here seem to want to close, i thought i would share my observations from a brief unofficial passenger count i did today (29/07) on a return journey from Marylebone to South Ruislip.

1410 Marylebone to High Wycombe (3 car 165)
Wembley Stadium - didnt count here
Sudbury Hill Harrow - 7 off, 2 on
Northolt Park - 10 off, 3 on
South Ruislip - 9 off, 6 on

Had to double back via West Ruislip on the way back due to the recent Chiltern cuts reducing South ruislip to 1tp2h in the Southbound Direction on weekday off peaks grrrrrrrr.

1518 High Wycombe to Marylebone (3 car 165)
West Ruislip - 5 off, 10 on
Northolt Park - 6 off, 7 on
Sudbury Hill Harrow - 1 off, 5 on
Wembley stadium - 13 off, 8 on

Obviously this is only a tiny snapshot of the overall services each day at these stations but i thought the usage at the inner london stations particularly on the way out was quite strong for a weekday offpeak, for stations which barely recieve 1tph often with large gaps in the peak and irregular calling patterns, with Sudbury Hill Harrow recieving no trains on weekends. So i can well imagine a clockface 2tph metro service (if well advertised to the local areas) could increase usage quite significantly given the untapped demand there is currently as a result of the abysmal service. Just look at the increases in usage when Angel Road was replaced by Meridian Water with a substantial service increase, resulting in Meridian Water getting 6x times the passenger usage Angel Road had.

I do also wonder whether there might be a fair bit of unrecorded fares from some of the inner london stations particularly if people are travelling between ungated stations which means that the passenger usage statistics don't accurately show real usage.

Thank you for that. Re 14.10 Marylebone to High Wycombe, the alighting passenger numbers are a bit higher than I'm used to. Re 15.18 High Wycombe to Marylebone, I've caught that train a few times from West Ruislip and those numbers joining the train there and at Northolt Park are above average. From Sudbury Hill and Wembley the numbers joining are normal. In my experience, by the time off peak trains leave Wembley Stadium for Marylebone, they're pretty full . . . . . but they're only two or three coaches long! 4 coach trains are the exception!

I don't think the Angel Road/Meridian Water change provides a reliable comparator. Angel Road had become difficult and unpleasant to access whereas the replacement is easier and far less unpleasant. To repeat what I posted earlier, I agree that a more frequent service would stimulate higher patronage, but not by much and certainly not nearly enough to warrant the 4 tracking and metro frequency being suggested in this admittedly speculative thread.

 

[cle]

A ton of house-building and other commercial developments might also be the catalyst, all up the Lea Valley. I don't see much of that happening in Sudbury or Ruislip - it certainly should be around every Central line station now. These are not especially desirable suburbs either with much to 'preserve'. Wembley Stadium of course has had tons, and the area os much better for it.

 

[DavidGrain]

I have two points to make so I shall put them both in this post as they will get merged anyway.

I have seen a map but I cannot find it on the internet at the moment so I cannot post it here. It was a map of the proposed West London Orbital Line which showed the Chiltern Line having its own terminal station at Old Oak Common. Not knowing the area I am guessing it would have been close to, possibly even next to but not inside, the HS2/Elizabeth Line station. As we are now told that HS2 will open only as far as OOC in the first instance then many people will get used to this change of trains. The point of the OOC station is to give HS2 passengers access to Heathrow without having to go through central London so this would also be an advantage to Chiltern passengers.

My second point follows on from the discussion about West Hampstead. The Late Adrian Shooter had a plan to rebuild and connect the West Hampstead Underground and Overground stations putting platforms on the Chiltern and Metropolitan lines. These would have been on the opposite side of the road and both stations would have been connected by an underground passage. He abandoned that plan when Chiltern got fined £550,000 by the rail regulator.

 

[cle]

Your first point -

There is a doc somewhere which shows an eventual mini terminus for Chiltern at OOC, in the form of two bay platforms facing west. Most likely on the northern-most NR pair (Crossrail London bound?) - this would require a link to reconnect to the NNL.

Service pattern was 4tph, I recall one of High Wycombe, Oxford, Aylesbury (vp?) / MKC and Banbury. Nothing on power or traction.