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What to do with HS2 and NPR

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HST43257

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Hopefully NPR will be built in full, but I suspect that there will be several intermediate stages. For example, before HS1 and HS2 phase 2b was/is built, Eurostar and HS2 services appear on the existing main lines, until the new lines are operational. NPR might be the same, with Trans Pennine Route upgrade filling that void.
True. I think it should happen in close together phases if possible.

Phase 1: Manchester Airport to Leeds (enabling HS2 connection)
Phase 2: Leeds to York (or Church Fenton)
Phase 3: Liverpool to Manchester Airport (with line also towards Crewe from Liverpool via Warrington)

The issue with suggesting things like Liverpool - Chat Moss - NPR through Pennines - York - Newcastle is that extra infrastructure has to be built for that connection onto the main line. Ideally HS2 and NPR would have its own underground station, meaning no reverse for NPR and less land clearance above ground.

Looking at it now, maybe keep faster Liverpool to North East services on using TP route but have through HS2 to Leeds via NPR services. Once all of it has been built, then change services over.
 
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Purple Orange

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True. I think it should happen in close together phases if possible.

Phase 1: Manchester Airport to Leeds (enabling HS2 connection)
Phase 2: Leeds to York (or Church Fenton)
Phase 3: Liverpool to Manchester Airport (with line also towards Crewe from Liverpool via Warrington)

The issue with suggesting things like Liverpool - Chat Moss - NPR through Pennines - York - Newcastle is that extra infrastructure has to be built for that connection onto the main line. Ideally HS2 and NPR would have its own underground station, meaning no reverse for NPR and less land clearance above ground.

Looking at it now, maybe keep faster Liverpool to North East services on using TP route but have through HS2 to Leeds via NPR services. Once all of it has been built, then change services over.

If done in that order, Liverpool will be dropped from the NPR concept altogether. Regardless of whether Piccadilly is a surface or underground station, there needs to be a terminus somewhere for NPR trains.

The NIC report for the Regional 25% option and Upgrade only option demonstrates significantly faster journey times for Leeds to Birmingham via Manchester than the current XC service via Sheffield. It’s up to 40 mins faster on the Regional 25% option. For Leeds to London services, it is only marginally faster via Manchester than the ECML. There are 3 x 200m HS2 train services from Birmingham planned for the eastern branch. It therefore makes sense that at least 3 of the planned 6 NPR services between Leeds & Manchester to continue on to Birmingham.

Those services will continue to Manchester Airport, but without a junction for Liverpool, the 6 NPR services will need to either terminate in Manchester or continue to Birmingham.

The proposition for Liverpool services was to see 4 tph to Manchester. If the Liverpool leg is delayed, I can only see 2 tph continuing across the Pennines with 2 tph terminating at Victoria.
 

HST43257

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If done in that order, Liverpool will be dropped from the NPR concept altogether. Regardless of whether Piccadilly is a surface or underground station, there needs to be a terminus somewhere for NPR trains.

The NIC report for the Regional 25% option and Upgrade only option demonstrates significantly faster journey times for Leeds to Birmingham via Manchester than the current XC service via Sheffield. It’s up to 40 mins faster on the Regional 25% option. For Leeds to London services, it is only marginally faster via Manchester than the ECML. There are 3 x 200m HS2 train services from Birmingham planned for the eastern branch. It therefore makes sense that at least 3 of the planned 6 NPR services between Leeds & Manchester to continue on to Birmingham.

Those services will continue to Manchester Airport, but without a junction for Liverpool, the 6 NPR services will need to either terminate in Manchester or continue to Birmingham.

The proposition for Liverpool services was to see 4 tph to Manchester. If the Liverpool leg is delayed, I can only see 2 tph continuing across the Pennines with 2 tph terminating at Victoria.
Could the Liverpool/Crewe/Manchester bit come first then Manchester to York altogether?
 

Purple Orange

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Could the Liverpool/Crewe/Manchester bit come first then Manchester to York altogether?

It could, but we should expect electrification and delivery of TPRU long before the HS2 western branch is up and running. It is completely feasible that the junction south of Piccadilly is joined up to the electrified Trans Pennine main line when the western branch is built. That would enable XC services to merge with Manc-Brum HS2 services and that would all be before anything appears close to completion at the Liverpool end.
 

HST43257

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It could, but we should expect electrification and delivery of TPRU long before the HS2 western branch is up and running. It is completely feasible that the junction south of Piccadilly is joined up to the electrified Trans Pennine main line when the western branch is built. That would enable XC services to merge with Manc-Brum HS2 services and that would all be before anything appears close to completion at the Liverpool end.
Yes, TRU isn’t supposed to be a long way away at all.
 
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