What stock "should" operate Liverpool-Norwich services?

[anti-pacer]

Despite EMT's decent refurbishments of their 158's, I do feel that these are unsuitable for such a long journey.

It is essentially an Inter City route, and although I'm fairly confident that the amount of 'end to end' journeys are outweighed by shorter journeys, I often see seat reservations for distances such as Liverpool-Nottingham, Manchester-Peterborough, etc.

What units should really run this service.... in an ideal world of course!

 

[anthony263]

The 158's I do think do a good job at the moment.

I wouldnt be too surprised if this route like the Cardiff - Nottingham service could potentially end up as a home for the Class 220/222 fleets when they are displaced from elsewhere by electrification

 

[anti-pacer]

Not a huge fan of 222's but they would certainly be better suited to a service like Liverpool-Norwich.

I would also like to see the following stopping pattern on that route;

Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington Central - Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport - Sheffield - Chesterfield - Nottingham - Grantham - Peterborough - Ely - Thetford - Norwich

Does it really need to call at Liverpool South Parkway and Widnes, when there are other local trains that call there? Maybe TPE could stop there instead.

Also, Alfreton. Not really sure this justifies more than 1tph to both Nottingham and Sheffield.

It could also speed up journey times on this line.

 

[SeanG]

I think the 158s are fine as it is.
Perhaps 3x 158 might be better as I hear the services are still overcrowded, but obviously this is unlikely to happen, and I wonder if platform lengths will be an issue to.

I think 222s would be unsuitable, as they would not be able to keep to the 158 timings IIRC

 

[anthony263]

EMT could get additional 158's if it is decided that the FGW class 158's will be replaced by casaded class 165/166's.

Of course ATW will be after additional 158's for the cambrian line

 

[anti-pacer]

I think the 158s are fine as it is.
Perhaps 3x 158 might be better as I hear the services are still overcrowded, but obviously this is unlikely to happen, and I wonder if platform lengths will be an issue to.

I think 222s would be unsuitable, as they would not be able to keep to the 158 timings IIRC

But with fewer stops as I suggested, wouldn't that make up for it timewise?

Also, 222's have a proper buffet car (well, shop), rather than a trolley.

 

[HSTEd]

Class 444 alikes after mass electrification and line speed improvements such that 100mph+ is the ruling linespeed throughout.

 

[43074]

I would say that although the 158s do a good job of the route at the moment, a Class 170 would be better suited because they are 100mph capable and can operate at Sprinter speeds East of Nottingham, they have 1/3 and 2/3 door layout, so are ideal for the large cities of Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham and Peterborough that the route passes through and relative to the 158s they do not represent a decrease in capacity that conversion to 222s would give - a 4 car 158 can seat 292 passengers, a 5 car 222 can seat approximately 180 passengers in total.

Plus with forthcoming electrification schemes in Scotland and perhaps XC in a few years then would be an ideal opportunity for the then EM franchisee to take some 170s on. The 158s could be distributed to FGW to displace 150s from long runs on the cornish main line, ATW to provide extra capacity on the Cambrian and perhaps Northern to provide more capacity.

 

[tom1649]

Despite EMT's decent refurbishments of their 158's, I do feel that these are unsuitable for such a long journey.

You mean a refurbishment that didn't include replacing the useless conditioning, but did include seats that are so high backed that they make me feel claustrophobic. Yes apart from that they aren't bad.

 

[swt_passenger]

It is essentially an Inter City route...

Oh no! Not another Intercity misappropriation...

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Also, Alfreton. Not really sure this justifies more than 1tph to both Nottingham and Sheffield.

Alfreton serves Sutton-in-Ashfield and Mansfield without having to go all the way to Nottingham to change to a service which isn't the best, especially at weekends.

As for stock, the 158's are ideal for this kind of service. A few years ago when they just ran as single units, they were usually wedged by Manchester and Sheffield, but now the majority (if not all) services are doubled, this has made the 158 a suitable stock to run this kind of service. Why waste Voyagers/Meridians on this service as well as linespeeds on this route are not consistent enough to warrant high speed capable trains to run at or near their top speed. The only places really for high speed running would be the ECML between Grantham and Peterborough and possibly between Sheffield and Alfreton. Capacity-wise they are very similar to a 4 car 158.

If there could be any other stock running this service it would have to be something like a 170 or a 185. 170's are capable of running a bit faster and are a bit more suited to long-distance journeys as with the 185.

 

[anthony263]

I would say that although the 158s do a good job of the route at the moment, a Class 170 would be better suited because they are 100mph capable and can operate at Sprinter speeds East of Nottingham, they have 1/3 and 2/3 door layout, so are ideal for the large cities of Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham and Peterborough that the route passes through and relative to the 158s they do not represent a decrease in capacity that conversion to 222s would give - a 4 car 158 can seat 292 passengers, a 5 car 222 can seat approximately 180 passengers in total.

Plus with forthcoming electrification schemes in Scotland and perhaps XC in a few years then would be an ideal opportunity for the then EM franchisee to take some 170s on. The 158s could be distributed to FGW to displace 150s from long runs on the cornish main line, ATW to provide extra capacity on the Cambrian and perhaps Northern to provide more capacity.

FGW may have a lot of class 158's to use if they are replaced on the Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour route by class 165/166's

 

[sash5000]

I travel on this route a few times a year and I think that the current Class 158s are spot on, except for a lack of luggage racks. Leaving Norwich the trains are typically have about 90% of their seats taken so capacity is OK.

I've travelled as far as Nottingham from Norwich on this route and the Class 158s are comfortable enough and they have been very well refurbished.


Sascha

 

[Bevan Price]

Not a huge fan of 222's but they would certainly be better suited to a service like Liverpool-Norwich.

I would also like to see the following stopping pattern on that route;

Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington Central - Manchester Piccadilly - Stockport - Sheffield - Chesterfield - Nottingham - Grantham - Peterborough - Ely - Thetford - Norwich

Does it really need to call at Liverpool South Parkway and Widnes, when there are other local trains that call there? Maybe TPE could stop there instead.

Also, Alfreton. Not really sure this justifies more than 1tph to both Nottingham and Sheffield.

It could also speed up journey times on this line.

Widnes is quite a large town. The stop there provides a fast service between Widnes & Manchester, and you would probably lose many of these if they only had local services, many operated by Pacers.

Liverpool South Parkway is attracting passengers who use Liverpool (John Lennon) Airport.

After electrification of the Chat Moss route & the Trans Pennine lines, there will be no TPE services via Widnes.

I think 4 car 158s between Liverpool & Nottingham are adequate - although unfortunately some 2 car trains still appear. However, it would be useful if there was also an hourly Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Derby - Leicester service, also 4 car 158s, to increase capacity over the busiest part of the route. (But please - no first class - that would only leave more standard class passengers with nowhere to sit.)

(5 car 222s have a lot fewer standard class seats than a 4 car 158, so we don't need 222s to "improve" the services; even 7 car 222s have only a few more seats than 4 x 158. )

 

[ainsworth74]

FGW may have a lot of class 158's to use if they are replaced on the Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour route by class 165/166's

Though I'd have the priority for those 158s would be displacing 150s from Cornish Mainline services.

 

[David Goddard]

I agree that the 158s are well suited to the route. Have in the past considered it as a contender for cascaded 220s but as others have said the capacity is lower and the top speed capability would be pretty much wasted apart from Peterborough-Grantham.
The route is not an InterCity service, more a regional express service.
Fleet enlargements could come from further 158s cascaded from FGW, but I can think of other routes more in need. Some could be freed up by ScotRail when the EGIP project is completed, but I would most like to see the route converted to Class 170 operation, at which point a transfer to an enlarged Cross Country operation may be appropriate.

 

[anthony263]

Though I'd have the priority for those 158s would be displacing 150s from Cornish Mainline services.

Yes the cornish mainline services between Penzance & Plymouth/Exeter are an ideal home for the class 158's however I wouldnt exactly be too surprised if the turbo fleet gets cleared to work down there

 

[northwichcat]

Does it really need to call at Liverpool South Parkway and Widnes, when there are other local trains that call there? Maybe TPE could stop there instead.

TPE do call at Liverpool South Parkway and people from Yorkshire do use Liverpool Airport so the call isn't just for passengers to/from Liverpool and Warrington. LM also stop all Birmingham-Liverpool trains there so the only services to go through South Parkway without stopping is the hourly London-Liverpool train, which is too long to stop there anyway.

TPE call at Birchwood while EMT call at Widnes, the standard pattern is for fast Liverpool-Manchester trains on the CLC to call at Birchwood or Widnes, not neither or both. All Northern services between Oxford Rd and Lime St stop at both.

 

[David Goddard]

Yes the cornish mainline services between Penzance & Plymouth/Exeter are an ideal home for the class 158's however I wouldnt exactly be too surprised if the turbo fleet gets cleared to work down there

There are enough Turbos for the Thames Valley fleet to take over all GW services South West of Bristol. 166s for the mainlines and 165s for the branches. 158s could then be concentrated on the Cardiff-Portsmouth & Weymouth, which I think would be best transferred to SWT operated from Salisbury.

 

[D7666]

What units should really run this service.... in an ideal world of course!

390s.



Via Crewe WCML NLL GEML and Ipswich.

Far quicker than tottering across country.

--
Nick

 

[RobShipway]

As I was reading through this thread, I kept thinking Class 180 to do the Liverpool - Norwich Services once they have been replaced by IEP bi-mode trains, however I think their acceleration maybe a bit too much for these services?

Then I thought, what if the 180's replaced the Class 170's in the Cross Country fleet and the Class 170's then got moved to do the Liverpool - Norwich service?

 

[northwichcat]

Then I thought, what if the 180's replaced the Class 170's in the Cross Country fleet and the Class 170's then got moved to do the Liverpool - Norwich service?

Then maybe the 3 car class 170s, which Central ordered with the intention of being used on Liverpool-Norwich, would return to that route?

 

[Bevan Price]

Then maybe the 3 car class 170s, which Central ordered with the intention of being used on Liverpool-Norwich, would return to that route?

Nice trains, but a lot less seats than 4 x Class 158. And some of them are with London Midland for Birmingham - Hereford services.

 

[Class172]

Nice trains, but a lot less seats than 4 x Class 158. And some of them are with London Midland for Birmingham - Hereford services.

Well unless you want to give us some alternative with extra capacity at the same time…

 

[dosxuk]

New stock - purpose built regional express units to replace the 158s on various routes across the country - routes that are too complicated / too low priority to electrify in the next 20-30 years, like Liverpool - Norwich, Stansted - Birmingham, Nottingham - Cardiff.

Something like this:



(It's a rough idea, that I'm sure is full of gaping holes and has zero chance of becoming reality)

 

[43074]

As I was reading through this thread, I kept thinking Class 180 to do the Liverpool - Norwich Services once they have been replaced by IEP bi-mode trains, however I think their acceleration maybe a bit too much for these services?

Then I thought, what if the 180's replaced the Class 170's in the Cross Country fleet and the Class 170's then got moved to do the Liverpool - Norwich service?

Nice thought there, but...

Norwich to Liverpool requires an allocation of 12 units to provide the hourly Norwich to Liverpool service - so in terms of numbers 180s would be ideal if used on their own. With Sprinters/Turbostars you also need 7 units to strengthen between Nottingham and Liverpool otherwise you get overcrowding.

The snag is, that there are only 14 Class 180s and they would not be best suited to Birmingham to Stansted for the same reasons you mention above and that 175s/180s cannot run at Sprinter speeds between Nottingham and Norwich. IMO, they would be suited to Nottingham to Birmingham and Cardiff though. But you would only displace 11 170s from Nottingham - Birmingham/Cardiff (service has 10 diagrams - 1 of which is booked for 2 units) leaving a shortfall of 8 units plus maintenance spares.

 

[tbtc]

If you're not going to radically alter the service (split it, speed it up significantly, divert it elsewhere etc), then...:

Problems with the 158s:

• 90mph running on the thirty five mile section from Grantham to Peterborough isn't ideal (given that every other passenger service on that bit of line is 125mph stock)
• Narrow doors are a bit of a hassle at stations like Manchester Piccadilly (compared to the time taken to unload/ load a 170/185 etc)

Benefits of the 158s:

• 90mph is fine for most of the route (lets face it, little scope for higher speed between Liverpool and Chesterfield due to congestion - head out of Lime Street at 125mph and you'll soon catch up a Pacer ahead)
• Most of the passengers are doing distances that the 158 interiors are okay for - not ideal for "End to end" passengers, but then what is?
• Corridor connections allow the service to have extra capacity on the busier (western) side of the route
• Four coaches (west side)/ two coaches (east side) seems a decent amount of capacity - could always be more, like with many services, but good enough for now
• Plenty scope for extra 158s freed up by electrification elsewhere to add to the capacity on the Liverpool - Norwich service (rather than having a stand-alone fleet that can't easily be added to)

So, the answer is... keep 158s

 

[beano900]

I use this service regularly between Birchwood and Manchester Oxford road. The trains are actually pretty good but virtually always overcrowded, sometimes horrendously so. Something longer would be an advantage (isn't that always the case?!).

Also, the idea that these trains only stop at Warrington and then Manchester without any peak time Birchwood or Irlam stops is a poor idea! I'd like to avoid as many northern rail pacers as possible.

At the risk of thread hijack, are the plans to stop any tpe services after chat moss electrification? Sounds like another backward step if true.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

 

[RobShipway]

New stock - purpose built regional express units to replace the 158s on various routes across the country - routes that are too complicated / too low priority to electrify in the next 20-30 years, like Liverpool - Norwich, Stansted - Birmingham, Nottingham - Cardiff.

Something like this:



(It's a rough idea, that I'm sure is full of gaping holes and has zero chance of becoming reality)

Nice idea, but I think you would want stock that could run at 125mph maximum speed between Grantham and Peterborough, but has the same acceleration capacity as a Class 158 at lower speeds.

 

[northwichcat]

At the risk of thread hijack, are the plans to stop any tpe services after chat moss electrification? Sounds like another backward step if true.

It's anticipated there will be a half-hourly Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester-Sheffield and beyond service and a half-hourly Liverpool-Earlestown-Manchester-Newcastle service.