What should replace Voyagers on XC?

[Bletchleyite]

A good way to provide capacity while also improving environmental credentials (and jobs in the North East) would be a fleet of 80x. I think we'll see this at the next franchise change.

 

[Meerkat]

Could you economically build a bi-mode Voyager equivalent with enough power on electric to tow a Voyager about (then they both are powered up for the unelectrified bits)

 

[swt_passenger]

In the spirit of avoiding duplication, we’ve regularly done 80x for XC before:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...or-the-cross-country-franchise.162455/page-10

 

[coradiafan2000]

For the sake of variety (and also because as I've said in a different thread that I don't want to see 80x trains everywhere), how about a hypothetical bi mode 397 with say, 9 carriages?

That would be my ideal choice, unless a new train is unveiled. Either way, a bi mode train would make logical sense.

 

[greatvoyager]

For the sake of variety (and also because as I've said in a different thread that I don't want to see 80x trains everywhere), how about a hypothetical bi mode 397 with say, 9 carriages?

That would be my ideal choice, unless a new train is unveiled. Either way, a bi mode train would make logical sense.

I like the idea of a bi mode 397.

 

[Aictos]

Class 68 with 11 coaches should be ordered I think

 

[thenorthern]

Something with TASS function on the train as non-tilting stock would mean slower speeds and therefore no real benefit to passengers.

 

[coradiafan2000]

Something with TASS function on the train as non-tilting stock would mean slower speeds and therefore no real benefit to passengers.

The current XC franchise doesn't really go over any lines where tilting stock is needed. It's not like when Virgin operated it and services ran over the WCML. As much as I'd like to see a return of tilting stock, I don't think XC (or any future operator of the franchise) would think the cost was worth it. The main things needed from newer trains are higher capacity and bi mode functionality.

 

[SeanG]

I like the idea of a bi mode 397.

As long as the current issues get sorted out...

 

[Energy]

It depends who gets the next franchise, if First get it then I can't see bimode 397s being ordered after the delays at TPE. If Abellio get the franchise then it is a possibility but Abellio don't always go for the cheapest and another manufacturor may have a better product. If Virgin/Stagecoach get the franchise, they will probably get something unique so possibly bimode 397s possibly not. And if Arriva get it, we won't get any new stock.

 

[Clip]

If Virgin/Stagecoach get the franchise

Arent they currently barred from bidding on Rail franchises?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Must trains be something already built? Can’t operators just order a new type of train?

 

[Energy]

Class 68 with 11 coaches should be ordered I think

Couple issues with that, a 12 car would dangle of most platforms and I don't think the 68 has enough power

Arent they currently barred from bidding on Rail franchises?

Only for the west coast partnership, east Midlands and south eastern (to high was canceled). Stagecoach were the only ones banned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couple issues with that, a 12 car would dangle of most platforms and I don't think the 68 has enough power

It'd also be massive overkill. If we're talking 22m Mk5as, 8 car would be more than enough. 1 brake first open, 1 buffet first open, 5 standard open, 1 driving trailer standard open would do it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must trains be something already built? Can’t operators just order a new type of train?

It's cheaper to buy something that already exists, generally speaking, and you get it into service sooner as you're not the guinea pig.

 

[Aictos]

It'd also be massive overkill. If we're talking 22m Mk5as, 8 car would be more than enough. 1 brake first open, 1 buffet first open, 5 standard open, 1 driving trailer standard open would do it.

It was only a rough figure anyway, my point was that it could have been used on say the Bristol to Manchester route to free up Voyagers so 1. They can undergo a decent refurb and 2. Be able to run longer trains on the Anglo Scottish routes.

 

[hexagon789]

Must trains be something already built? Can’t operators just order a new type of train?

Other than timescale, I don't see why not. Certainly in about 10 years XC may well want to get shot of their HSTs, if not sooner. Depends what happens with the VT 221s I think.

 

[hexagon789]

It's cheaper to buy something that already exists, generally speaking, and you get it into service sooner as you're not the guinea pig.

It'll happen in the next decade I think, that XC will order something brand-new. Very likely a bi-mode of some description.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'll happen in the next decade I think, that XC will order something brand-new. Very likely a bi-mode of some description.

I'd bet on 80x. Probably 5x26m, as this seems to be pretty much the standard.

 

[Energy]

I'd bet on 80x. Probably 5x26m, as this seems to be pretty much the standard.

It's whether Hitachi can build enough in time.

 

[JonathanH]

It's whether Hitachi can build enough in time.

More like whether the production line is still open. Hitachi 80x is now some years old. If an XC order follows the close of the 804 order, then Hitachi trains seem possible.

If the order is in ten years time it is possible that they get something different - e.g. whatever is ordered for internal Scottish routes to replace the HSTs.

 

[PartyOperator]

If we're talking 10 years to get rid of the Voyagers, HS2 will become a major factor - Birmingham-Manchester will have new, very high capacity trains and Reading (or south) to Birmingham (or further north) will become quicker via Old Oak Common and HS2 trains. There will still be a need for semi-fast trains on the conventional network, but we might see rather less need for XC to meet the long-distance/high-speed role it currently kind-of does, at least for the South Coast to Manchester via Birmingham axis. This route might well be better off split between multiple operators since there will be much less reason for anyone to do the whole thing without changing. Some of the minor routes would already make more sense being served by other operators. That leaves the (currently mostly not electrified) South West to North East core XC network to design the new trains around rather than the current 'X' with branches.

 

[JonathanH]

If we're talking 10 years to get rid of the Voyagers, HS2 will become a major factor

That kind of uncertainty would suggest to me that replacing Voyagers at the moment isn't a great idea. You are suggesting that regional-type trains may be better suited to the operation in ten years time than a high speed fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd bet on 80x. Probably 5x26m, as this seems to be pretty much the standard.

Something like that. Should provide a lift in capacity compared to a 4-car Voyager, though could longer than 5 but shorter than 9-car be built? Or would just running 5-cars doubled where necessary suffice?

Alternatively something akin to an 80x but not necessarily an 80x could be procured.

 

[JonathanH]

Something like that. Should provide a lift in capacity compared to a 4-car Voyager, though could longer than 5 but shorter than 9-car be built? Or would just running 5-cars doubled where necessary suffice

Realistically 5-car+5-car or 9-car with 26m vehicles on Cross Country is absolute fantasy. It is too much of a leap from the current offering for any future bidder to take a risk on.

 

[swt_passenger]

Realistically 5-car+5-car or 9-car with 26m vehicles on Cross Country is absolute fantasy. It is too much of a leap from the current offering for any future bidder to take a risk on.

Surely they’d want at least a few massive trains for that essential market, direct Liverpool to Brighton trains?

 

[clagmonster]

As much as it pains me to say it, Voyagers at present are only roughly at half life. With the 221s set to be released from West Coast and similar but incompatible 222s from the MML, I can see an increase in the fleet size at the next franchise change with replacements not for another 10-20 years.

I would imagine whatever is built then will be something not currently on the market. As has earlier been pointed out, we do not know how HS2 will change requirements, nor do we know to what extent the network will be electrified. I would hope at least some of the Cross Country fleet will be replaced by straight leccies, with the rest either bimodes or leccies with battery capabilities, depending on how battery technology has developed and how large the unelectrified extremities are.

 

[greatvoyager]

As much as it pains me to say it, Voyagers at present are only roughly at half life. With the 221s set to be released from West Coast and similar but incompatible 222s from the MML, I can see an increase in the fleet size at the next franchise change with replacements not for another 10-20 years.

I would imagine whatever is built then will be something not currently on the market. As has earlier been pointed out, we do not know how HS2 will change requirements, nor do we know to what extent the network will be electrified. I would hope at least some of the Cross Country fleet will be replaced by straight leccies, with the rest either bimodes or leccies with battery capabilities, depending on how battery technology has developed and how large the unelectrified extremities are.

The way things are going, I think battery powered trains are probably going to start being the norm. Particularly if there is a requirement to eliminate diesel running.

 

[JonathanH]

The way things are going, I think battery powered trains are probably going to start being the norm. Particularly if there is a requirement to eliminate diesel running.

...for local journeys at relatively slow speeds. Batteries reliably powering 125mph trains might be further away although maybe with discontinuous electrification might be feasible.

 

[hexagon789]

Realistically 5-car+5-car or 9-car with 26m vehicles on Cross Country is absolute fantasy. It is too much of a leap from the current offering for any future bidder to take a risk on.

Well what would you replace the double Voyager and HST diagrans with?