What should be the next DMU order?

[northwichcat]

I know a lot of people want new EMUs not DMUs but there aren't enough carriages at present and more EMUs need more electrics, which takes time and we already have electrification strategies for the next few years.

Therefore, what should be the next DMU order?

I'd suggest a 172 order:

35 172s for London Midland

Then any remaining Sprinters at LM would be cascaded directly or indirectly to Northern, EMT or/and FGW. We don't know how many LM will get to keep so don't know exactly how many will be available.

The 170s at LM, TPE and XC would then be reallocated:
TPE get 14 x 3 car 170s and XC get the TPE ones plus the rest of the LM ones meaning XC gain 22 carriages and TPE gain 24 carriages.

 

[gordonthemoron]

They should get some of these:

they're great, and they tilt

 

[Class172]

I'd give LM their extra 172 order; then give them even more 172s sufficient so that their 170s can go elsewhere. This would help to increase capacity within other TOCs and help to abolish some of the pacers.

Then I don't think we have any urgency for more DMUs until the pacers and150s are life expired.

 

[YorkshireBear]

This discussion is going to appear at least twice a week from now untill the year 2200?

 

[Class172]

This discussion is going to appear at least twice a week from now untill the year 2200?

By which time the electrification of the Far North Line will be taking place!

 

[northwichcat]

I'd give LM their extra 172 order; then give them even more 172s sufficient so that their 170s can go elsewhere. This would help to increase capacity within other TOCs and help to abolish some of the pacers.

Then I don't think we have any urgency for more DMUs until the 150s are life expired.

I'm not sure how you work that one out. The Pacers need to be replaced by the end of 2019 while the 150s are due for replacement within the 2014-2019 CP. At present the network is short of hundreds of trains so we need hundreds of new trains delivered before we can realistically start writing off any trains. We never got the new DMU orders for Northern, FGW and TPE and passenger numbers have continued to rocket since.

 

[YorkshireBear]

By which time the electrification of the Far North Line will be taking place!

Yes and we will still be discussing it!

 

[Class172]

I'm not sure how you work that one out. The Pacers need to be replaced by the end of 2019 while the 150s are due for replacement within the 2014-2019 CP. At present the network is short of hundreds of trains so we need hundreds of new trains delivered before we can realistically start writing off any trains. We never got the new DMU orders for Northern, FGW and TPE and passenger numbers have continued to rocket since.

How did I forget the pacers!!!

 

[tbtc]

This discussion is going to appear at least twice a week from now untill the year 2200?

Aye.

I suppose it all depends on whether the next order is:

1. To cope with growth of existing services
2. To replace Pacers (and maybe replace the need for "single" 153 operation)

Ideally we'd move straight to "2", but we may have a stop-gap order. Ordering LM enough 172s (two car and three car) to replace all their 150/153/170 sounds very sensible, it'd free up a lot of units.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm not sure how you work that one out. The Pacers need to be replaced by the end of 2019 while the 150s are due for replacement within the 2014-2019 CP. At present the network is short of hundreds of trains so we need hundreds of new trains delivered before we can realistically start writing off any trains. We never got the new DMU orders for Northern, FGW and TPE and passenger numbers have continued to rocket since.

My 2p is that there should be no more DMU orders until the 170s are life expired.

Electrification should be the way forward.

We have discussed many times lines which would cascade a lot of DMUs but to risk covering old ground

TPE north should be done along with any spurs that prevent Hull - Doncaster / York service from using EMU power.
All gaps in the southern regional, Gatwick - Reading, Bassingstoke - Reading, all routes using 171s!
MML including Sheffield - Doncaster and Sheffield - Leeds via both Barnsley and Wakefield
Ipswich - Felixstow
Ipswich - Ely - Peterborough - Nuneaton - Birmingham
Cardiff Valleys

Get an order of EMUs done at the same time. We should be able to enough routes wired to rid us of the pacer by 2019! Look at all the DMUs cascade if North TPE was done!

 

[Class172]

Ideally we'd move straight to "2", but we may have a stop-gap order. Ordering LM enough 172s (two car and three car) to replace all their 150/153/170 sounds very sensible, it'd free up a lot of units.

If we count what be cascaded to include the current 172 order then you would get as so (numbers taken from wiki):

170/6 - 6 units
170/5 - 17 units
153 - 10 units
150/2 - 2 units*
150/1 - 24 units*
150/0 - 9 units

*Also as we know there are also 14 150/0 units that are have a 150/2 central car. If these were reformed into 2 car formations then it would release 14 150/1s and 7 150/2s.

That gives a total of 68 released sets! (If my maths are correct)

 

[Failed Unit]

Remember as well the Scotrail DMUs will be heading south in large numbers from 2016. They will of course keep some for growth but the central belt electrification will at least release the worse of the 158s

 

[northwichcat]

Look at all the DMUs cascade if North TPE was done!

One thing you have to look at is the Network Rail employees currently trained/being trained on overhead wiring will be engaged on various projects for the rest of this decade. If you get the trained people to train extra people then it ups the set up cost and delays current projects.

How are you suggesting to electrify North TPE? Are you suggesting York-Scarborough is electrified, which Network Rail found to be non-economically viable and suggested would be tagged on to the York-Blackpool service if North TPE was electrified, requiring extra DMUs for that service due to the extension?

Really if you do North TPE you'd either need to just convert the Newcastle and Middlesbrough routes to EMUs or also electrify Calder Vale (including the Huddersfield spur) and the Warrington Central line as diversionary electrified routes otherwise one little problem could cause carnage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we count what be cascaded to include the current 172 order then you would get as so (numbers taken from wiki):

170/6 - 6 units
170/5 - 17 units
153 - 10 units
150/2 - 2 units*
150/1 - 24 units*
150/0 - 9 units

*Also as we know there are also 14 150/0 units that are have a 150/2 central car. If these were reformed into 2 car formations then it would release 14 150/1s and 7 150/2s.

That gives a total of 68 released sets! (If my maths are correct)

And many of the 150s have already been allocated to seriously overcrowded routes in other parts of the country.

 

[Failed Unit]

One thing you have to look at is the Network Rail employees currently trained/being trained on overhead wiring will be engaged on various projects for the rest of this decade. If you get the trained people to train extra people then it ups the set up cost and delays current projects.

How are you suggesting to electrify North TPE? Are you suggesting York-Scarborough is electrified, which Network Rail found to be non-economically viable and suggested would be tagged on to the York-Blackpool service if North TPE was electrified, requiring extra DMUs for that service due to the extension?

Really if you do North TPE you'd either need to just convert the Newcastle and Middlesbrough routes to EMUs or also electrify Calder Vale (including the Huddersfield spur) and the Warrington Central line as diversionary electrified routes otherwise one little problem could cause carnage.

If Scarborough is not viable then just do Scarborough - Blackpool and terminate the existing service at York.

I am sure the French would help us electrify our routes.

 

[northwichcat]

Remember as well the Scotrail DMUs will be heading south in large numbers from 2016. They will of course keep some for growth but the central belt electrification will at least release the worse of the 158s

Do you mean the same 158s that caused bad overcrowding on routes now operated by Northern, FGW and EMT by being sent to Scotrail in the first place?

 

[Failed Unit]

Do you mean the same 158s that caused bad overcrowding on routes now operated by Northern, FGW and EMT by being sent to Scotrail in the first place?

Yep the same ones - the joys of having a government that is prepared to fund things! The overcrowding in Edinburgh and Glasgow would not be as bad as Leeds and Manchester even if Scotrail didn't have them!

 

[Kneedown]

What should be the next DMU order?
There shouldn't be one. Electrification and EMU's should be the only new stock built. Might be a bit pricey at first but over the years it'll be a darn sight cheaper than diesel!

 

[whhistle]

I think they should continue to order 170's so LM have a common fleet of diesel trains.
The 150's can go to Northern.
Then, the 158's they have (any?) can go to Northern.
The 170's can go to Cross Country to release their 158's to Northern.

Perhaps. I don't know exact numbers or if it will work, but having a standardised fleet of trains would make things a lot easier surely?

As for getting rid of pacers, 150's, 153's and even 156's, it's be great to have more 172's or 185's, again to try and keep things standard. It's a shame they didn't develop the 175 better or even the 180. I mean, look at all the 170's there are out there, a successful unit I would say, but evidently the next versions were not so great.

Just stick with 185's and 172's.

Would be nice for maybe a new fleet of 185's to replace the 165's and 166's in the south so they can head north and replace [pacer/sprinter] stock up there to finally let the Sprinter family and older to be put to rest.

 

[cj_1985]

why not just order a batch of 3 carraige or longer DEMUs instead of DMUs...
with them pre-wired to allow a pantograph* to be fitted when more lines are electified

Isn't that meant to be the basis for why it would be possible to slot a pantograph carraige into any of the class 22X units... since there is no mechanical or hyraulic transmission.. because power at the wheels comes from electricity generated by the engine ... hence why they are DEMUs

* the centre carraige would have a pantoraph "well" just like the majority/all of the southern region Electrostars and Desiros have, that would allow them to be cascaded elsewhere if the need arose

 

[lemonic]

What should be the next DMU order?
There shouldn't be one. Electrification and EMU's should be the only new stock built. Might be a bit pricey at first but over the years it'll be a darn sight cheaper than diesel!

I completely disagree with you. Yes, electrification should be a priority but there is no way that it will be financially viable to electrify every line and I don't think branch lines should be closed because they are not worth being electrified.

Even just electrifying the core routes will take a long time. Yet we have Pacers and the oldest Sprinters in need of replacement whilst there are big capacity problems on unelectrified lines in the north of England, for example. Electrification is not enough, we need a new, fairly cheap, basic and lightweight DMU to add capacity and replace life-expired stock.

 

[simonmpoulton]

Well I think they should order a newer variant of the 175 in 3-carriage form for arriva thus allowing all the 2-carriage 175 units to displace the 150's and provide an increase in capacity across all Arriva's current class 175 diagrams. That way Arriva's fleet is kept simplified and standard whilst providing an overall increase in capacity.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think they should continue to order 170's so LM have a common fleet of diesel trains.
The 150's can go to Northern.
Then, the 158's they have (any?) can go to Northern.
The 170's can go to Cross Country to release their 158's to Northern.

Perhaps. I don't know exact numbers or if it will work, but having a standardised fleet of trains would make things a lot easier surely?

As for getting rid of pacers, 150's, 153's and even 156's, it's be great to have more 172's or 185's, again to try and keep things standard. It's a shame they didn't develop the 175 better or even the 180. I mean, look at all the 170's there are out there, a successful unit I would say, but evidently the next versions were not so great.

Just stick with 185's and 172's.

Would be nice for maybe a new fleet of 185's to replace the 165's and 166's in the south so they can head north and replace [pacer/sprinter] stock up there to finally let the Sprinter family and older to be put to rest.

Where to start on this one, LM dont have 158s and neither do Cross Country
175 & 180s are not a development on 170s either. 170s are Bombardier (AdTranz at the time IIRC) and 175 and 180s are Alsthom

 

[trains2064]

172's.

Perfect replacement for all Class 142/3/4's.

 

[anthony263]

Well I think they should order a newer variant of the 175 in 3-carriage form for arriva thus allowing all the 2-carriage 175 units to displace the 150's and provide an increase in capacity across all Arriva's current class 175 diagrams. That way Arriva's fleet is kept simplified and standard whilst providing an overall increase in capacity.

Yes please, the all of arriva class 175's should have been 3 carriages, maybe ordering some centre carriages and a few more units would be good, allowing most Llandudno-Manchester services to operates as 6 carriages during the busy summer months.

Also ordering more class 175's will allow for better frquency of trains to/from west wales. maybe a service every 90 minutes to Pembroke Dock/Milford Haven.

 

[BananaRepublic]

....all of arriva class 175's should have been 3 carriages, maybe ordering some centre carriages and a few more units would be good.....
Also ordering more class 175's will allow for better frquency of trains .......

There's the slight problem that the production line for these trains closed down years ago, the factory is shut and the manufacturer pulled out of the UK.

OK, Alstom could probably supply some extra vehicles from their French facilities, but the cost of restarting production would far outweigh the cost of buying brand new trains from elsewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if a single extra vehicle would cost more than a new 2 or 3 car DMU off an existing production line.
In any event, the jigs were probably destroyed some time ago.

Let's face it, the 175 & 180 Coradia fleets are orphans and will continue to be a strategic fleet planning problem for the rest of their working lives.

 

[Kneedown]

I completely disagree with you. Yes, electrification should be a priority but there is no way that it will be financially viable to electrify every line and I don't think branch lines should be closed because they are not worth being electrified.

Even just electrifying the core routes will take a long time. Yet we have Pacers and the oldest Sprinters in need of replacement whilst there are big capacity problems on unelectrified lines in the north of England, for example. Electrification is not enough, we need a new, fairly cheap, basic and lightweight DMU to add capacity and replace life-expired stock.

With peak oil the cost of fuel will keep on going up and up. It aint never going to come down so it's pure folly to build diesels with a design life of 30 years+. Better by far to get with program and get the wires up along the major routes and do the branches on the way. It is cost effective to electrify the whole network, it just that it's not a quick profit, it takes longer to recoup.

 

[Failed Unit]

With peak oil the cost of fuel will keep on going up and up. It aint never going to come down so it's pure folly to build diesels with a design life of 30 years+. Better by far to get with program and get the wires up along the major routes and do the branches on the way. It is cost effective to electrify the whole network, it just that it's not a quick profit, it takes longer to recoup.

Just to add to your point, the 170s will still be with us until around 2030, who knows what technology is going to be about by then. The 172s until about 2040! It is not as if the far north line for example isn't going to have any DMUs for a while.

 

[northwichcat]

Just stick with 185's and 172's.

Would be nice for maybe a new fleet of 185's to replace the 165's and 166's in the south so they can head north and replace [pacer/sprinter] stock up there to finally let the Sprinter family and older to be put to rest.

I take it you mean the Chiltern 16xs as the FGW ones are being replaced by cascaded EMUs.

The 16xs would be restricted to a few North East routes due to being a wider loading than standard build and there may be an issue in getting them up there in the first place.

The 185s are designed for routes involving a high amount of hill climbing and even then they were over-powered for that. The 185s wouldn't pass new eco standards so you'd need a modified design in the form of a 186.

 

[Anvil1984]

For my opinion (which is usually wrong) the next DMU order should be the top up of the LM order to give them a 100% DMU fleet of class 172s. The 170s can then go to NXEA to give them a 100% 170 fleet and any left over 170s go to TPE to increase capacity. NXEAs 156 and 153s then to be shared out but because of self interest I'm giving them to Northern

Part 2 of my plans depend on what Scotrail will get rid of post EGIP electrification

 

[northwichcat]

For my opinion (which is usually wrong) the next DMU order should be the top up of the LM order to give them a 100% DMU fleet of class 172s. The 170s can then go to NXEA to give them a 100% 170 fleet and any left over 170s go to TPE to increase capacity. NXEAs 156 and 153s then to be shared out but because of self interest I'm giving them to Northern

The only issue with that is NXEA would be using 170s on services with a lot of stops, which would probably increase journey times.

Maybe do a LM order, followed by an order of 26 x 172s for NXEA.

As it's been reported above that Scotrail will have spare DMUs in a couple of years as well. I'd do the following:

I'd then send all the NXEA 153s and 170s to EMT. EMT then get more 170s cascaded from Scotrail to give enough to run all Liverpool-Norwich services in 4 or 5 car 170 formation, at least west of Nottingham. Northern then get the EMT 158s and NXEA 156s but lose their 155s to EMT and their 153s to FGW/ATW/EMT as demand dictates.