What should be the minimum train length?

[Sorcerer]

Common discussions on the forums include subjects partially or entirely relating to train lengths. Be that whether Avanti West Coast should've ordered longer Evero units or CrossCountry's overcrowding issues caused by short formations relative to the service type, it's often one of the most important factors relating to capacity on the rail network. So that said, what should be the minimum train length in Great Britain for each type of service?

• For long-distance InterCity trains I think the bare minimum should at least be seven coaches, maybe five if the demand for the route is small enough. Certainly no less than that. I say this because InterCity trains operate long journeys at less frequent intervals but are also profit-makers compared to regional trains, so it's important to try and fit as many people on them as possible while still being able to fit within the platforms, so seven coaches seems like a happy minimum.
• For regional trains though it's harder to say. London Northwestern seems to run in mostly eight-coach formations out of Euston, but some routes might not need such long trains. Therefore I think a minimum of four coaches is a decent standard because regional trains with gangways can be doubled up with relative ease without the need for extra staffing unlike InterCity units.
• For local stoppers such as Northern three or four seems like a fair standard as well, though I lean towards four. But at the same time a bit of pragmatism should be applied. For example, could anyone imagine the Elizabeth Line running with less than nine coaches? It's already busy enough as it is, so forget trying to run Northern-length units on a regional express train through the capital.

Indeed there could well be a London-weighting factor for determining a proper minimum length for rolling stock, so with all that in mind what do we think should be the bare minimum train length requirement for different kinds of services? I am quite interested to see what everyone has to say about this subject.

 

[MatthewE707]

I mostly agree here - I'd say:

• commuter services into London should be 8 coaches at the very least, probably 10 in most cases where possible
• commuter services in other cities should be at least 4 coaches (though probably 6 in some cities such as Birmingham and Glasgow)
• regional trains should be at least 4 coaches for longer-distance regional, some shorter-distance can be 3 coaches
• some of the smallest branch lines can probably get away with 2 coach trains

I can speak for the c2c and Greater Anglia services, and I'd say there:

• c2c should have 10 and 12 coach trains only at peak times (although I don't believe the platforms on the Tilbury loop can currently accomodate more than 8 coaches)
• Off-peak, 8 cars via Basildon and 4 cars on the loop is fine (some services via Basildon are currently 4 cars, which isn't really enough)
• GA services on the GEML should be 10 cars at peak times (which they currently are) - 12 cars might be better but the 720s are in 5 coach sets and even 4 coach sets put into a 12 probably wouldn't have much more capacity than a 10-car 720 - in fact, the 10-car 720 has more seats than a 12-car 321 which ran on those routes previously.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The siding at Lincoln can only take a 5 car Azuma.

 

[liamf656]

It's depends on too may factors for a one size fits all approach. There are many depots, sidings and platforms that take a maximum length, even on Intercity services and in some cases the demand just doesnt justify 3 or 4 coach trains. That's not to say a lot of routes desperately need a capacity increase

 

[Pete_uk]

3 carriages for local/regional

7 for long distance 'Intercity' services

 

[A S Leib]

Are there any cases where intercity services regularly gain or lose coaches along the route? For example, ten carriages might be needed at times for London to Bristol whilst being excessive to continue to Weston-super-Mare, but I think that would be harder to manage if most of the intercity fleet were seven carriages.

 

[The exile]

Are there any cases where intercity services regularly gain or lose coaches along the route? For example, ten carriages might be needed at times for London to Bristol whilst being excessive to continue to Weston-super-Mare, but I think that would be harder to manage if most of the intercity fleet were seven carriages.

Seen (or rather heard) plenty of “join the front 5 carriages for Weston” at Temple Meads. Whatever - carrying a bit of fresh air is good - it means there’s capacity for growth and coping with the unexpected.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I don't think it's quite that simple.

For example:

A 2 car 197 and a 3 car 230 have roughly the same capacity.

A 3 car 197 and a 4 car 231 have roughly the same capacity.

A 2 car 158 has more seats, toilets and luggage space than a 2 car 150.

There also local/rural routes where specifying 3 or 4 car trains as an absolute minimum would be complete overkill.

 

[A S Leib]

There's also the need to consider the timetable in some cases; four carriages might be needed on a branch line with an even 2tph, but if you have a slow service leaving five minutes after the fast and no other services, a shorter train would probably (depending on how much quieter the skipped stations are) be needed.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Start with the infrastructure...

Is Bourne End one of the limiting factors for local services?

 

[frankmoh]

6 cars minimum for metro services, preferably 8. Peak times can be 10 cars.

I can't find capacity figures for SE's 376 and 707 so Networkers it is. I will be using the seating capacity as opposed to the maximum capacity because standing up on a Networker is a brave effort at best.

4 car: 348
6 car: 516
8 car: 696
10 car: 864
12 car: 1044 (Too long? Maybe)

From my experience with off-peak on the Hayes Line, the train has everyone interspersed across all 8/10 carriages lightly by Lewisham. All of these people would be able to fit in a 4 car train no doubt but I don't think anyone wants to be that close to each other, hence my minimum limit being 6 cars.

The fact SE's other metro offerings split up into 5 cars annoys me. They also have less seats than a 4 car 465. Companies seem to prioritise standing over sitting nowadays and have even made the seats narrower.

The only train to come close to a 465's capacity is the train it replaced, the 4EPB with 386 seats.

 

[Zomboid]

They should convey enough seats that the people who will use them will be able to travel in reasonable comfort. Standing for a length of time is fine on short duration commuter journeys, but not on longer trips.

An arbitrary number of vehicles isn't really the point.

 

[frankmoh]

I'm sure there are some internal company numbers about the average number of people getting on a train at a station during peak/off-peak times.

 

[3141]

31 feet 6 inches on the line to Stourbridge Town.

OK, that's a slightly frivolous answer, but the point is that if you look at a specific route you may reach a different conclusion compared with the train that might be designed for "rural branch lines", on some of which two coaches and around 180 seats might be more than enough, while on others three coaches might sometimes be needed.

 

[frankmoh]

31 feet 6 inches on the line to Stourbridge Town.

OK, that's a slightly frivolous answer, but the point is that if you look at a specific route you may reach a different conclusion compared with the train that might be designed for "rural branch lines", on some of which two coaches and around 180 seats might be more than enough, while on others three coaches might sometimes be needed.

I think the Class 141 Pacer had the lowest capacity of any multiple unit train still in service during the 2000s at just 94 seats. The funny thing is that the original Leyland National bus had a capacity of 70 despite being half the length.

 

[RT4038]

I think the Class 141 Pacer had the lowest capacity of any multiple unit train still in service during the 2000s at just 94 seats. The funny thing is that the original Leyland National bus had a capacity of 70 despite being half the length.

Not 70 seats though!

 

[frankmoh]

Not 70 seats though!

Considering the 121 is only 1 car but can hold 65, I dread to think what a 70 seat multiple unit looks like.