What rolling stock is this?

[Bletchleyite]

Attached is a very old photo of me (the kid) in the early 1980s on a train (not sure who the other two are other than that they're a lot older than that now and they know my Dad).

I *think* it was on the way to Weymouth...but what kind of rolling stock is it? The window surround and seating looks Mk2, but I'm not sure - the rest of it and the colour scheme is unfamiliar. I originally guessed it was a Wessie, but the seats and window surround look wrong.

Any ideas?

 

[CatfordCat]

first thought here is that it's a refurbished mk 2 of some sort (the earlier non air-con varieties - the windows got smaller from the 2d onward) - possibly a one-off or small batch of refurbishments?

if you mean the class 442 / 5 WES units, it doesn't look like them - and they came in to use in 1988 (you'll have a better idea than me when this picture was taken)

where would you have travelled to Weymouth from? Not sure it looks much like a 4 REP / TC either

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'd second that it looks like a Mk2 to me.

 

[fgwrich]

I'd second that it looks like a Mk2 to me.

That's definitely a Air Con Mk2 window - Mk3s have a window panel around the frame whereas the Mk2s don't.

As for the service, could it have been one of the Cross Country services running that way at the time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would have been from Liverpool but could have been via London so could be on the WCML.

The thing that looks really unfamiliar is the vestibule door, doesn't look like a normal Mk2 one?

 

[Bletchleyite]

if you mean the class 442 / 5 WES units, it doesn't look like them - and they came in to use in 1988 (you'll have a better idea than me when this picture was taken)

Probably around 1981-1983 or thereabouts.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The door in the background is typically found on aircon mk2 stock.

 

[Smitham]

My first thought was also Mk2 AC.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The seat covers suggest a Mk2F. These had IC70 seats but without the large middle armrests and tables that made getting in and out of them so awkward on Mk3s. They were very common on the WCML especially on the West Mids route but no reason they couldn't appear on Cross Country workings particularly at weekends.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers all, Mk2 it is then It's the colours that threw me mostly I think (I guess that is the original moquette?). Funnily enough I don't remember it

Re tables as far as I know Mk2f *did* have tables but there was one bay per coach that didn't, and I'm pretty sure it was at one end.

 

[Mag_seven]

The thing that looks really unfamiliar is the vestibule door, doesn't look like a normal Mk2 one?

I think the vestibule door of this vehicle could be "pinned back" i.e. open. What you might be seeing is the door of the adjacent vehicle which of course may not be a mark II.

 

[trainmania100]

looks like a southern 455 to me from the pattern on the seats

 

[Bletchleyite]

looks like a southern 455 to me from the pattern on the seats

There weren't *any* 455s when it was taken, let alone any operated by a 2000s TOC!

 

[Deepgreen]

looks like a southern 455 to me from the pattern on the seats

No 455 has ever carried moquette anything like that. The vestibule doors on 455s are flush with the bulkhead, not set back in this way. The windows surrounds are also completely different. 455s have never operated in service to Weymouth as far as I know. If the picture was taken in 1983, the 455s were only just entering service then, and would not being looking as tired as this shot shows.

Mk2 (AC) seems to fit the bill - there would be at least part of the opening section visible had it been a Mk2a or b.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Cheers all, Mk2 it is then It's the colours that threw me mostly I think (I guess that is the original moquette?). Funnily enough I don't remember it

Re tables as far as I know Mk2f *did* have tables but there was one bay per coach that didn't, and I'm pretty sure it was at one end.

Correct re moquette being original. Same style was fitted to HST Mk3 TSs.

Also right about the tables. But those in Mk2Fs were not as large as the original Mk3 tables so were less of an obstruction when getting in or out of the seats. And the single table-less bay was generally my preferred seat simply because most other passengers avoided them!

 

[GospelOak117]

What about a refurbished 411? - similar 2+2 seats, small window table and window size?

 

[KevinTurvey]

From the grey window rubber and interior panels certainly a Mk2F, although I cant remember the doors being like this either. I always remember the interior cream panels used to be a rough stipple effect that used to hold the dirt, unlike the shinier replacement ones fitted during refurbishment.
The Mk 2D had dark wood panels and the Mk 2E lighter wood panels, and if memory serves correct not even all the Mk 2F had the new style of seat in the photo.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could it have been one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_438

During the early 80s the juice rail only went as far as Bournemouth. The trains were a crompton + 1 emu + 1 "unpowered" emu

 

[randyrippley]

I've mentioned before that I one rode in an early Mk2 which had been fitted with non-opening full size double-glazed windows (not the small windows of the later A/C variants) and that window arrangement looks the same.
One of the non-A/C variants was designed to allow A/C to be retrofitted, and I believe a small number were test-modified, even though the common-held belief is that none actually were. I believe this is one of those test modifications

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What about a refurbished 411? - similar 2+2 seats, small window table and window size?

But in those days the refurbished 411s were exclusively on the Kent Coast Main Line; it was only in their final few years that they moved a few onto the South Western routes.

Could it have been one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_438

During the early 80s the juice rail only went as far as Bournemouth. The trains were a crompton + 1 emu + 1 "unpowered" emu

Wrong type of seats I'm afraid; that refurbishment in the picture on Wikipedia was 1987 and was only half a carriage; the rest of the fleet retained the older type of seats.

 

[Bevan Price]

Could it have been one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_438

During the early 80s the juice rail only went as far as Bournemouth. The trains were a crompton + 1 emu + 1 "unpowered" emu

Yes - electrification only reached Weymouth in 1988, so it must have been loco-hauled stock,

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think (not wishing to kill the speculation) we have pretty much concluded it to be a Mk2f, either on a CrossCountry service of some kind, or we travelled via London and it's on the WCML (more likely?), not sure which.

Cheers all!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Did the Intercity services in the early 80s go further than Poole?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did the Intercity services in the early 80s go further than Poole?

I believe some form of XC service did serve Weymouth, yes. But there's a good chance it did involve travel via London (and I guess XC type services, being hand-me-down land, would probably have been more likely to be Mk1s?). Thinking back a bit, I half think it *could* have been the Lime St-Euston sleeper, as I'm sure I recall mention that me and my Mum had a bunk because I was so young (not sure why I wasn't in it at that point) but everyone else was in the seats. Though that might not have been that trip.

(It was a Scout trip to Guernsey, FWIW - these days you'd probably fly!)