What rail accident was I in?

[Bensonby]

When I was a young child (probably under 5 or 6 - possibly younger) I was on a trip with my grandparents where the train I was travelling in was in some kind of accident. I have a vivid memory of being de-trained and seeing a mangled door (of the old "slam" type) which I was told was the cause of the accident - I assume this isn't a false memory, but I definitely remember being told a door had been hit by a passing train. It became something of a family lore (mainly because my grandparents resented being kicked out of a first class carriage where they sat on the next/replacement train and I had fallen asleep).

It would have been in the very late 1980s or very early 1990s. I grew up in South London, so I assume it would have been South London, Kent, or Sussex etc. or elsewhere in the Home Counties. I have checked historic RAIB reports, but I can't find anything that matches.

 

[Towers]

I suspect that errant open doors being smashed off by passing trains/infrastructure was something of a semi-regular event during the good old days of the Slammers, and there were a lot of them in the areas you mention back then!

Is anyone in the family able to shed any more light at all?

 

[Bensonby]

That did occur to me just after I posted it: would this even have been a RAIB matter or was it just a locally recorded thing? If the latter, I fear it was lost in the mists of time!

 

[AlterEgo]

A door smashing against a train wouldn't have ordinarily been a HMRI accident matter. RAIB didn't exist in the 80s.

 

[edwin_m]

It might be worth looking at the accident database on Railways Archive, though as others have suggested this probably isn't serious enough for an HMRI report and few if any railway internal reports are in the public domain.

Accident Archive :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

 

[D1537]

In the past, minor accidents that don't result in any injury very rarely appear in any accident reports; I have been on a train involved in a low speed collision (1982) and witnessed another (1985), and neither appears in any documentation from the time.

 

[Belperpete]

As a trainee, I spent some time in the Control Office in Beckenham in the early 80s. Incidents involving opened slam doors were a regular occurrence, usually a couple each day as I recall, and that was just the SR SE division.

The worst that I recall was when a passing train took an open door off its hinges, and the door then spun around between the two trains as they passed, smashing windows in as it went. One person ended up with broken glass in their eye. I don't think even this warranted an investigation, let alone a report.

I think such incidents were only reported to HMRI if someone was injured. And as today with the RAIB, the HMRI didn't investigate every incident, only if it were considered serious enough. I think that HMRI used to publish an annual report, that included the figures for "routine" deaths and injuries that didn't warrant investigation.

It was a different world back then, and deaths and injuries on the railway were fairly frequent occurrences. You were more likely to be killed on the job working for BR than working for the Coal Board.

What you are asking about is a bit like saying my family were involved in a minor road accident last year, but I can't find any official report about it.

 

[Rescars]

I recall an incident c1990 when I found an open door on a slammer heading south from East Croydon. I told the guard who nonchalantly strolled down the corridor and simply slammed it shut.

It didn't appear to be that unusual a situation. Had a train been passing on the adjacent track, I fear the outcome would have been more than alarming!

 

[6Gman]

I recall an incident c1990 when I found an open door on a slammer heading south from East Croydon. I told the guard who nonchalantly strolled down the corridor and simply slammed it shut. It didn't appear to be that unusual a situation. Had a train been passing on the adjacent track I fear the outcome would have been more than alarming!

An open door wouldn't normally foul a train on the adjoining track would it?

 

[edwin_m]

An open door wouldn't normally foul a train on the adjoining track would it?

It might do if the guard was half way through closing it - when it could take their arm off. If the train was moving at any speed then it would close violently if it was "hinge forward" to the slipstream, but if the other way round it would be impossible to close.

 

[Rescars]

IIRC the door in question was hinge backwards, but being held at 90° to the carriage side by a retaining strap. So potentially fouling the adjoining track. If the door had been flat against the carriage side I'd guess it would have been almost impossible to close it against the slipstream.

 

[Taunton]

In 1979 I arrived at Liverpool Street.

There had been, since I left the previous evening, a substantial bufferstop collision at Platform 10, the main line platform which in those days extended further in than the others, though you could still walk round the back.

Whatever had hit it had been cleared away, and a substantial civils gang, plus a works train, were doing a very extensive and rapid repair; the buffers had been smashed to oblivion right back into the concourse, where large pieces of the paving asphalt were pushed up vertically and broken.

No trace of any report into this.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There was a schedule of what were 'reportable' accidents but the Ministry very often chose not to investigate those reported. BR being nationalised it was taken for granted that they would carry out their own investigation.

In the simplest of terms it was person injured and train movement..

In the case of those reported and subsequently investigated by the Ministry the Ministry investigation relied heavily on the initial BR one. BR never withheld details of failures by its staff but regarded the investigations as what would now be called 'a learning opportunity'.

 

[Dr Hoo]

IIRC the door in question was hinge backwards, but being held at 90° to the carriage side by a retaining strap. So potentially fouling the adjoining track. If the door had been flat against the carriage side I'd guess it would have been almost impossible to close it against the slipstream.

Retaining straps were quite unusual in the days before Mark II ‘wraparound’ doors. This was intentional so that rear-hung (in the direction of travel) would flap right back onto a bump stop precisely so that didn’t act as a ‘scoop’.

A forward-hung door would tend to be held almost shut, even if not engaging on the half catch, by the slipstream. This didn’t stop them sometimes getting sucked open foul by a passing train where there was only a ‘six foot’ or by a tunnel wall. The tight tunnels on the Southeastern were notorious for that.

 

[Harpo]

When I was a young child (probably under 5 or 6 - possibly younger) I was on a trip with my grandparents where the train I was travelling in was in some kind of accident. I have a vivid memory of being de-trained and seeing a mangled door (of the old "slam" type) which I was told was the cause of the accident - I assume this isn't a false memory, but I definitely remember being told a door had been hit by a passing train. It became something of a family lore (mainly because my grandparents resented being kicked out of a first class carriage where they sat on the next/replacement train and I had fallen asleep).

It would have been in the very late 1980s or very early 1990s. I grew up in South London, so I assume it would have been South London, Kent, or Sussex etc. or elsewhere in the Home Counties. I have checked historic RAIB reports, but I can't find anything that matches.

Unlikely to have been more than a control log item.

In the 80s a container door on our train fell open at a signal stop and smashed cab windows on a passing DMU. We later learned other containers had been raided earlier at a signal stop. Just a control log item for that.

 

[King Lazy]

I was on a train from London to Lancaster c1990. As we passed a freight train something must’ve been hanging off it and took out almost every window in two coaches of the train.

We stopped at Nuneaton, they remarshalled the train to remove the damaged coaches then we continued. We didn’t even have to get off the train.

I also remember the journey was impressively fast later on as the driver made up time. It was a Class 87 with a rake of MK3s.

I wonder what would happen after an incident like that now. Fixed formation multiple units would mean the train would be cancelled for a start.

 

[Lucan]

An open door wouldn't normally foul a train on the adjoining track would it?

It might do if the guard was half way through closing it - when it could take their arm off. If the train was moving at any speed then it would close violently if it was "hinge forward" to the slipstream, but if the other way round it would be impossible to close.

Hopefully the guard would have looked out first to check there was no train coming the other way.

Unavoidable on slammer stock, but rear hinged doors are known in the car world as "suicide doors" because if you open one at speed while holding a handle you would likely be catapulted out as the wind snatched it open.

With some exceptions, modern car doors are forward hinged for that reason despite it making them less convenient to get in and out. It recently happened to someone travelling (illegally) in a caravan with a rear-hinged door, caravans not being designed with en-route passengers in mind.

 

[Towers]

I was on a train from London to Lancaster c1990. As we passed a freight train something must’ve been hanging off it and took out almost every window in two coaches of the train.

I wonder what would happen after an incident like that now. Fixed formation multiple units would mean the train would be cancelled for a start.

Many, many claims for compensation would be received!

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Many of you will remember that a feature of the use of slam-door stock was the opening of the doors on the approach to platforms.

I don't remember this leading to accidents and /or enquiries (although I wouldn't be surprised if they did), but I do remember having to dodge opening doors (and on one occasion kicking a door shut).

 

[WesternLancer]

Many of you will remember that a feature of the use of slam-door stock was the opening of the doors on the approach to platforms.

I don't remember this leading to accidents and /or enquiries (although I wouldn't be surprised if they did), but I do remember having to dodge opening doors (and on one occasion kicking a door shut).

Yes, never saw one causing an accident myself back in the day, but it's likely plenty such accidents happened - and it must have happened enough for a variety of similar posters like this one to be commissioned - unless the posters were so effective it prevented the problems

I just looked for this having seen an interior carriage panel picture with a similar message in a restored Mk 1 Suburban carriage compartment I was in at the Great Central Railway last weekend*

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co231924/mind-that-door

Collection item description:
Caption:
"BR poster. Mind that Door! Accidents are caused by opening Carriage Doors before the Train Stops by Riley. Shows a woman being hit by a carriage door as it is opened from the inside."

Poster graphic art looks 1950s or early 1960s and includes BR totem logo

*EDIT - it was this image

Framed vintage British Railways carriage safety notice poster. | gb-revivals

A rare surviving full colour British Railways carriage safety notice, framed under safety glass.Once fixed within a slam-door carriage this public information safety poster graphically spells out the importance of not opening the carriage doors before the train stops.'Don't open the door ...

www.greatbritishrevivals.co.uk

caption -"Don't open the door until the train has stopped - your thoughtless action can kill or maim"

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Thanks; I don't think that I've seen that poster, but I think that I've seen others somewhere.

 

[contrex]

I once read somewhere that the worst kind of 'open-door collision' was where two trains travelling in opposite directions at speed had open doors that hit each other. I presume that must have been quite rare.

 

[Rescars]

I once read somewhere that the worst kind of 'open-door collision' was where two trains travelling in opposite directions at speed had open doors that hit each other. I presume that must have been quite rare.

Hopefully so, though possibly somewhat more likely on stretches of line between stations with island platforms.

Anything like an open door or shifted load fouling an adjacent track can obviously lead to dire consequences unless the problem is spotted in time. D L Smith tells of a situation in WW2 in SW Scotland when the gun turret on a tank being transported in blackout conditions swung through 90° with the gun barrel fouling the adjoining line. IIRC all traffic had to be stopped until the military could be summoned to resolve the blockage.

 

[yorkie]

... You were more likely to be killed on the job working for BR than working for the Coal Board....

I'm not convinced by this unsorced claim, but - to avoid this thread going off topic - I've created a new thread to discuss that further:

Death rate at British Rail vs Coal Board in the 1980s

In another thread, the following claim was made: It was a different world back then, and deaths and injuries on the railway were fairly frequent occurrences. You were more likely to be killed on the job working for BR than working for the Coal Board. But is this true? It's not clear if the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Taunton]

I heard of steam-hauled school trains, slightly before my time, which at 0830 on the single line stopped adjacent at a side platform station to pass one another, boys in one direction, girls in the other, so you can imagine the high jinks that happened. Both guards always checked very carefully the offsides of their trains before departure.

 

[contrex]

Hopefully so, though possibly somewhat more likely on stretches of line between stations with island platforms.

Anything like an open door or shifted load fouling an adjacent track can have obviously lead to dire consequences unless the problem is spotted in time. D L Smith tells of a situation in WW2 in SW Scotland when the gun turret on a tank being transported in blackout conditions swung through 90° with the gun barrel fouling the adjoining line. IIRC all traffic had to be stopped until the military could be summoned to resolve the blockage.

There was an incident near Beighton on the LNER in February 1942 when a 1.25 ton steel plate being carried on a goods train became dislodged and fouled the adjacent running line. A troop train passed at 35 mph and the sides of three carriages were ripped through. 14 soldiers were killed and 35 injured.

 

[Harpo]

I heard of steam-hauled school trains, slightly before my time, which at 0830 on the single line stopped adjacent at a side platform station to pass one another, boys in one direction, girls in the other, so you can imagine the high jinks that happened. Both guards always checked very carefully the offsides of their trains before departure.

York control log reported one Saturday that two return footexes from different clubs were platformed opposite each other on an island at Peterborough and that ‘some collision damage occured’.