What next for Norwich route?

[NXEA!]

Hello all, I was thinking earlier, being a regular user of the Norwich services, what would be the next logical step in terms of traction for the Norwich service? Looking at previous threads where the subject has surfaced, a lot of you think a 444 style unit would be of good use for the route. Many people think it doesn't warrant a loco-hauled service as its such a short route compared to other Inter-City routes, but I don't agree with bog-standard EMU's being used like 321's or 360's. As the 444 jigs have been scrapped, would you think a fleet of around 30-40 379's built as an add-on to the current order would be sufficient or 350's with 2+2 seating? I realise that these have more of a suburban trains door layout, but the Norwich services deal with a lot of passengers at peak periods anyway. To make sure no catering provision is lost, the sets could have a small buffet counter in one of the carriages, or you could copy the Southern idea and have a third of the fleet as buffet sets with the others having normal cars as per the 4Cigs and 4Bigs and Ceps and Beps, with a splitting and joining practice at Ipswich, whereupon 12 cars will run to Ipswich say in the peak only or during the day if passenger numbers demand it, with the rear 4 detaching and attaching to a London bound service and the front 8 including the buffet set running to Norwich. Or do you think that they should hold out with the stock they've got in the long term and wait for a suitable loco-hauled replacement such as 91's and Mark 4's displaced by IEP (if it ever happens)? So what do you think should happen? Discuss.

 

[Ivo]

If 321s become a regular fixture through Diss I am never going to Norwich from the south again.

I think something along the lines of a 444 would be ideal, but perhaps with only 4 cars instead of five. Then, during busy periods, they could be run as sets of three instead of two. Otherwise, I would have them exactly the same as a 444, and probably number them 394 just for good measure.

Seen as it isn't likely any time soon...

They could always try running converted 460s as an experiment, and see how it goes. If it fails, it fails. If it doesn't, we have a solution

 

[jopsuk]

If 444-style units were truly wanted (even for such a small fleet), I'm sure that Siemens, Bombardier or whoever would supply them.

I realise that in middle of the day it can be a bit wasteful, but I'd suggest ten car units (23m coaches) with all the first class marshalled together split from standard by the catering. Important though that with the space lost any accessibility improvements the overall seating capacity of a 10 car unit isn't lower than that of the current loco+8+DVT.

I'd also make sure the fleet was slightly bigger.

If they did go for Siemens, to the 444 design (but as a 10 car rake- hardly an impossibility) I'd hope that the powers that be take the opportunity to increase SWT's fleet of them.

 

[MCR247]

Well if you were only going to build around 15 of them, then it won't be cost effective. Siemens scrapped the 23m jigs. If you were making a load then it would be feasible and cost effective

 

[tbtc]

I'd let the 90s struggle on until new EMUs are built for the Midland Main Line, as the stock could be the same and it'd be cheaper/ easier to have a common fleet

 

[NXEA!]

Well if you were only going to build around 15 of them, then it won't be cost effective. Siemens scrapped the 23m jigs. If you were making a load then it would be feasible and cost effective

Call me pedantic, but you wouldn't really be ordering as little as 15, considering there's 11 diagrams per day, say pairs of 5 car units for each day diagram, that's 22 sets, so with spares I'd say between 25-30 sets. If 30 sets were ordered I'd also diagram a pair for the return Harwich boat services; this service warrants more than just 321's. So your looking at around 24 sets diagrammed per day. And if you wanted to get rid of the peak hour Norwich turn at 17:02 worked by 321's and turn it over to a pair of the new sets that's 26.

 

[jopsuk]

They're currently making a new 23m class in the form of the 380. Given the modular nature of modern train design, it is probably not beyond them to move the door position.

Whether we're talking 15 x 10 car units or 30 x 5 car units, you're looking at 150 carriages. That's considerably more than the number of 172 carriages on order or being built. It's just under the total number of 185 carriages. It's more than the number of 380 carriages on order or built. Rebuilding the jigs is not a problem. Scrapping them is a red herring.

 

[Daimler]

Is there anything drastically wrong with the 90s & Mk3s? They seem to have plenty of life in them - and a glorified suburban EMU is hardly going to be a superior train when it comes to comfort and catering provision (the OP has talked about fitting a few sets with a small buffet counter - considering NXEA are re-introducing fresh food for first class passengers, I don't think this would be sufficient.).

 

[387star]

Well in an ideal world 442s would be ideal obviously...

Would be great to see SWT attain more 444s. However having been on a 450 recently I honestly don't think they are that bad... sure the seats are narrow and the layout 3+2 but they have good flip down tables (lap top users can make use of those?) and plenty of leg room in the airline seats. Very smart inside too...

I'd love to see 458s introduced outside of London for I have yet to sample one. Back to topic...

I do think a mixture of 444s and 450s like SWT would be best for the line. Clearly at busy times 450s would be required and there is nothing wrong with that. Previously I would have supported those whi wanted 450s ousted from the Portsmouth line but hell I've grown to like them. To really like them.

The released mk3s would be great for Crosscountry and if need be new diesal high speed locomotives can be introduced or underfloor engines retro fitted?!

 

[NXEA!]

Is there anything drastically wrong with the 90s & Mk3s? They seem to have plenty of life in them - and a glorified suburban EMU is hardly going to be a superior train when it comes to comfort and catering provision (the OP has talked about fitting a few sets with a small buffet counter - considering NXEA are re-introducing fresh food for first class passengers, I don't think this would be sufficient.).

Nothing wrong with them at all, its just that they don't get to make use of their speed as much as on other mainline's due to the amount of stopping EMU's, and as such, EMU's such as 321's and 360's can keep time. I don't think the buffet counter would be a backward step in terms of catering provision at all; just because it isn't loco-hauled doesn't mean freshfood can't be provided with a restaurant style service in the seats adjacent to the buffet. Plus the EMU's will give a good impression on the passengers, with them being new and the 444 EMU's which are similar to the type of units likely to end upo working the line have got light and airy interiors. And a big plus side is the capacity increase you may get in a 10 or 12 coach formation whilst still maintaining a high level of comfort required for Inter-City routes.

 

[ainsworth74]

The released mk3s would be great for Crosscountry and if need be new diesal high speed locomotives can be introduced or underfloor engines retro fitted?!

Wait, you're suggesting that we spend millions on installing engines to 30+ year old Mk3s something which I'm not even sure would be technically possible!? Diesel locos are a possibility but I'm not sure if they would find use on XC unless they could keep time with Voyagers (which I suspect is unlikely). But don't get me wrong certainly I wouldn't complain however if they did get used on XC!

 

[387star]

Bit tongue in cheek obviously but I wonder if it is possible?

 

[MCR247]

Bit tongue in cheek obviously but I wonder if it is possible?

No chance

 

[ainsworth74]

Bit tongue in cheek obviously but I wonder if it is possible?

Anything is possible, but is it sensible, practical and cost effective I would have to say no absolutely not.

 

[Aictos]

I hope the OP realises that the Class 360s as used by NXEA and the Class 350s as used by London Midland are exactly the same units with the obvious exception being that the Class 350 has End Gangways fitted to permitted people to walk between pairs of units and the Class 360 has a Full Width Windscreen.

Where I believe there's nothing wrong with the Class 90s, Mk3s and DVT, I do believe it would be advantageous if NXEA had decided to go with a Class 444 type order to use on both Stansted Express duties as well as Norwich to Liverpool Street duties as the fitters and train crew are already familiar with the Class 360 so makes sense to opt for a similiar built and by using them on mixed services means you get the most out of them, the downside to the 379s is simply meaning having fitters/train crew having to learn yet another different type of train.

 

[MCR247]

I doubt any GE crew will be learning 379s so that's irrelevant

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Don't you believe that!

In all honesty, there's absolutely nothing wrong with NX's 90's. They're performing the best they've ever been since coming over from the WCML. There's a few more years left in the loco hauled services yet. Plus, the passengers get quite upset when their Mk3 stock is substituted for a EMU.

 

[junglejames]

I love it. Virtually everybody voting to scrap another Intercity route. Whats wrong with Intercity service?
The 444 is not a patch on the Mk3. Nowhere near as comfy.
Lets put it to a vote in East Anglia. Do you want an Intercity train, or a glorified commuter train?
Then we shall put it to a vote as to which of you on here stand in the way of the eggs!!

As we are deciding on what stock to put on the route though. Well 90s have another 15yrs left in them yet. Then what? Well loco hauled obviously. Its a no brainer. Why make something worse?
However as nobody is keen on it here, my vote goes to pacers. Think im joking? Well, either them or 158s. Thats my vote.

 

[MCR247]

So pendolinos are 'glorified commuter trains' because they are EMUs? :roll:

I'd say 444s, which are intended for Inter-regional routes like this, would suit it perfectly

 

[387star]

Yep soon as i went to bed i thought dam what about the driver!

 

[klewer]

I'd like to see the loco-hauled services replaced by EMUs sooner rather than later - if the replacements were able to work in multiple with the 360's they'd be even more flexible (and easier to rescue than the existing trains in the event of a failure).

The additional benefit would be that a 360 style EMU would have far better acceleration and take advantage of the 10mph faster "EMU" linespeed between Stratford - Chelmsford (do correct me if I'm wrong on that point!)

Passengers on the Southern lines do 2hr+ journeys on EMUs (in comfort) and there's no reason why the Norwich services shouldn't go over to the same.

 

[dk1]

The additional benefit would be that a 360 style EMU would have far better acceleration and take advantage of the 10mph faster "EMU" linespeed between Stratford - Chelmsford (do correct me if I'm wrong on that point!)

DOWN - 10 mph Maryland-Shenfield & 5 mph Ingatestone-Magaretting.

UP - 5mph Chelmsford-Magaretting & 10 mph Shenfield-Maryland.

To be honest it makes very little difference & anything gained is usually lost thanks to congestion around Forest Gate & Shenfield.

 

[Fred26]

I love it. Virtually everybody voting to scrap another Intercity route. Whats wrong with Intercity service?

Nothing. Liverpool Street - Norwich hardly qualifies as an intercity route though.

Lets put it to a vote in East Anglia. Do you want an Intercity train, or a glorified commuter train?

Of course they'll want the intercity train, but it's a commuter route that isn't even that long, really.

 

[sprinterguy]

I’m in agreement with many others posting in this thread: A fleet of five carriage 444s, working principally in pairs as ten carriage trains, but with a few off-peak diagrams for solo five carriage units. Fit them with buffets and an adjacent first class section and you haven’t really lost anything over the current loco hauled operation: The 444s are exceptionally good inter-regional trains.


I’d also say that it is worth waiting to replace the 90s+mk 3s until (if) electrification of the Midland Mainline takes place, as economies could be made through ordering an identical fleet of 444s for the MML at the same time: 25-30 trains for Norwich, and about 40 for the MML. There isn’t currently a pressing need to replace the stock on the Norwich main line.

 

[DarloRich]

I love it. Virtually everybody voting to scrap another Intercity route. Whats wrong with Intercity service?
The 444 is not a patch on the Mk3. Nowhere near as comfy.
Lets put it to a vote in East Anglia. Do you want an Intercity train, or a glorified commuter train?
As we are deciding on what stock to put on the route though. Well 90s have another 15yrs left in them yet. Then what? Well loco hauled obviously. Its a no brainer. Why make something worse? QUOTE]

Agree entirley - having lived in Yarmouth and used the service to London many times i know how popular the current arrangements are. (Anglia always seemed to run a decent service) Just keep using the current loco's and stock then use the 91's and Mkiv when they have been displaced from the ECML by the Voyager-esque rattle squah box that will be the new IC express trains!

BTW what do you suggest happens with all the decent Mkiii stock and a whole fleet of loco's - shall we sling them in the bin? Tell you what get them to electrify the TP route and we will use them up here on a proper intercity service! Newcastle-Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool

 

[junglejames]

Nothing. Liverpool Street - Norwich hardly qualifies as an intercity route though.



Of course they'll want the intercity train, but it's a commuter route that isn't even that long, really.

Yep, it is an Intercity route, because it has Intercity trains on it. Virtually everybody on here is wanting to downgrade it.
So it no longer matters what the passenger wants? Sounds just like how the TOCs act.

 

[jopsuk]

Do you want an Intercity train, or a glorified commuter train?

But it is a glorified commuter route. Norwich is only ten miles (straight line) further from London than Kings Lynn, which is served by Networkers! It's twenty miles closer than Weymouth, which is served by 444s. Same distance as Birmingham, but with no through-trains going further. In the absence of a line upgrade to allow faster trains, the 444s as an AC unit (344?) would probably be capable of the 110mph the 90s can do- and I'd wonder what a "344" would be capable of with a little bit of aerodynamic styling instead of a corridor connector.

We do use Intercity trains on frankly quite short routes- with 100mph+ trains, 100 miles is fairly easy commuting distance. Many people commute well over an hour (on slower lines) on a whole host of "proper" commuter trains.

 

[junglejames]

So pendolinos are 'glorified commuter trains' because they are EMUs? :roll:

I'd say 444s, which are intended for Inter-regional routes like this, would suit it perfectly

I never mentioned pendos. I mentioned 444s. However, if you take into account that i find pendos cramped and uncomfortable, then yes, that sounds like a commuter train to me. That is a totally different subject though, because i was on about 444s.

So 444s are perfect for it. Well, so are Intercity trains, and an Intercity service. Intercity means between cities. London is a city, so is Norwich. So an Intercity train and service is perfect for the route. It isnt a short route either. Its over 100 miles if memory serves me right.
If Peterborough is allowed an Intercity service, why isnt Norwich?
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But it is a glorified commuter route. Norwich is only ten miles (straight line) further from London than Kings Lynn, which is served by Networkers! It's twenty miles closer than Weymouth, which is served by 444s. Same distance as Birmingham, but with no through-trains going further. In the absence of a line upgrade to allow faster trains, the 444s as an AC unit (344?) would probably be capable of the 110mph the 90s can do- and I'd wonder what a "344" would be capable of with a little bit of aerodynamic styling instead of a corridor connector.

We do use Intercity trains on frankly quite short routes- with 100mph+ trains, 100 miles is fairly easy commuting distance. Many people commute well over an hour (on slower lines) on a whole host of "proper" commuter trains.

Yep, i know all that (well except the fact its a glorified commuter route, because it isnt). Yes, so a lot of commuters use it from Ipswich and Norwich. Brilliant. However it is also a lot more than a commuter route, and the main point still stands, that it is currently an Intercity route (and in my eyes deserves to be as it is more than a commuter route) so why downgrade it? We shouldnt be making things worse, we should be making them better or at the very least, maintaining the status quo.
Birmingham is/ was an Intercity station, so why cant Norwich be? Peterborough is (and that is even more a commuter town), so why cant Norwich be.
You mention Weymouth. Well in my eyes that should have an Intercity service. It deserves faster, nicer trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

But it is a glorified commuter route. Norwich is only ten miles (straight line) further from London than Kings Lynn, which is served by Networkers! It's twenty miles closer than Weymouth, which is served by 444s. Same distance as Birmingham, but with no through-trains going further. In the absence of a line upgrade to allow faster trains, the 444s as an AC unit (344?) would probably be capable of the 110mph the 90s can do- and I'd wonder what a "344" would be capable of with a little bit of aerodynamic styling instead of a corridor connector.

It's a proposal that seems to have gone quiet, but doesn’t the proposal for the Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification include a fleet of 125mph capable, five carriage EMUs for the fast service? If that idea is still being pursued, then we have a likely contender for the Norwich main line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Peterborough is allowed an Intercity service, why isnt Norwich?
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Peterborough's Intercity trains continue much further north than just Peterborough though. If Peterborough was a route extremity much the same as Norwich, then I think we probably would find that the current FCC Networker services would be the fastest trains between Peterborough and London: That's the way the Kings Lynn services went: That was once considered an "Intercity" route with loco hauled services.

 

[tbtc]

444s are perfect for it. Well, so are Intercity trains, and an Intercity service. Intercity means between cities. London is a city, so is Norwich. So an Intercity train and service is perfect for the route

Sunderland is a city, so is Newcastle. So the Metro should be upgraded to Intercity status?

I mean, if you want to play that game then Manchester to Salford should be Intercity

If EMUs are suitable for London - Cambridge/ Brighton/ Portsmouth/ Southampton etc then what is different about Norwich? I think a lot of people are thinking "EMU = commuter unit with 3-2 seating, no toilet"...

If they introduce EMUs, it'd be a good time to wire up the remaining parts of East Anglia, allowing through services from London to the coast, allowing services like London - Cambridge - Norwich etc. There are almost thirty DMUs which could be freed up with some "short" electrification
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BTW what do you suggest happens with all the decent Mkiii stock and a whole fleet of loco's - shall we sling them in the bin?

You mean the 1970s coaches and the unwanted 90s?

Neither are going to last long term - they are both on their last legs