What makes an InterCity class train?

[Adrian1980uk]

I've been thinking, given the improvement in commuter stock verses the intercity now going DMU/EMU, is there anything other than the way the interior is spec'd that says that's an InterCity or that's a regional express or that's a commuter train?

 

[bleeder4]

To me, an "InterCity" train is precisely that - it's one that stops only at massive population centres. A "regional express" would be one that stops at larger towns, whereas a "commuter train" would be one that stops at every single station. Coaching stock doesn't matter - it is purely the stopping pattern that defines which name it is.

That's just my opinion though. I don't think I've ever seen an official definition anywhere!

 

[DelW]

In terms of quality, my expectations for inter-city are

• end doors, not 1/3 & 2/3 or 1/4 & 3/4
• internal doors between vestibule and saloon
• 2+2 seats in standard, 2+1 seats in first
• adequate size luggage stacks and racks
• trolley service or a buffet

Sadly, my expectations are often not met by current TOCs.

 

[Spaceflower]

Interesting question, one which I've toyed with myself once or twice.

It's somewhat a subjective definition but it could be generally applied based upon some basic general rules if there was a reason.

But what would be a reason to?

I believe the term 'intercity' was conceived by BR as a marketing policy and was designed to convey the image of speed and comfort. It was also a way of differentiating between what was, at the time, profit making markets and loss making markets (Regional Railways). There was also NSE, but I digress.........

In terms of defintion, you could include stopping pattern but there's alot on traditional intercity routes that call at smaller stations on at least part of a longer route (such as alot of the exGWR routes) and many mixed services that can be a mix of fast/semi-fast and stopping at different stages along a route. Theres also route distance, market type, speed and comfort.

Are there any more worms in this freshly opened can? (I had to include a fishing pun somewhere :P)

Would it also depend the geographical context? Rural vs urban, London based and non London based, country, etc.....

 

[A S Leib]

it's one that stops only at massive population centres

Presumably excluding places served predominately or exclusively by intercity services (Chippenham, Penrith, Alnmouth), and extensions of regular intercity patterns to smaller places (Penzance, Inverness)?

 

[bleeder4]

Presumably excluding places served predominately or exclusively by intercity services (Chippenham, Penrith, Alnmouth), and extensions of regular intercity patterns to smaller places (Penzance, Inverness)?

Crikey, not thought about it that much to be honest. Just meant to be a bit of fun. Penrith and Alnmouth aren't really "massive population centres" so my definition of Intercity wouldn't have such services stopping there. They would be regional express stops.

 

[A S Leib]

London based and non London based

I think the only Avanti service pattern with an average speed below 65 mph is the Euston – West Midlands – Preston / Blackpool ones (I'm not saying that they're not intercity ones when Euston – Birmingham – Glasgow / Edinburgh are), and similar for LNER and EMR London – Leicester services. For the services via TransPennine Express's core and out of CrossCountry's Manchester services, the highest average speed is 55 mph, so it's harder to claim that they're intercity.

 

[Spaceflower]

But the TPE Manchester to Scotland and Liverpool to Newcastle?

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Then there's the HS1 international versus HS1 domestic.....

 

[A S Leib]

But the TPE Manchester to Scotland and Liverpool to Newcastle?

I was including the Liverpool to Newcastle service in the TPE core service group; it has an average speed of ~61 mph. Manchester Airport / Liverpool – Edinburgh / Glasgow Central's ~65 mph. Going off of speed alone, LNR's Trent Valley stoppers average around 82 mph, but I wouldn't say that that's an intercity service and those TPE ones* aren't.

*I think Nova 1s started running to Hull for the first time in last month's timetable change; given that, I can't think of any reason why Liverpool – Hull shouldn't be counted as intercity if Liverpool – Newcastle is.

 

[Topological]

There are very few true InterCity routes left. However, for me the ones that remain are

Paddington to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance
Paddington to Bristol/Weston-Super-Mare*
Paddington to Cardiff/Swansea/Carmarthen*
Euston to Birmingham/Wolverhampton (Avanti)
Euston to Chester/Bangor*/Holyhead*
Euston to Manchester
Euston to Liverpool
Euston to Preston/Blackpool*/Carlisle/Glasgow/Edinburgh
St Pancras to Sheffield
St Pancras to Nottingham
Kings Cross to Leeds/Bradford/Harrogate*
Kings Cross to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh
Kings Cross to Hull
Liverpool Street to Norwich

I did think briefly about whether Norwich from Liverpool Street still applies, but probably only half of the services do. It stayed on the list for now.

* are the extensions to journeys that would be classed as Intercity (ADDED THIS FOR CLARITY)

I do not consider CrossCountry or TransPennine to offer InterCity. To me they are regional expresses along with journeys like Leeds to Nottingham, Liverpool to Norwich etc.

The stock on these routes does define what is in the remit of InterCity. I am less wedded to the door orientation, but I do think luggage provision is an important part of the definition. Likewise, toilet provision and scope for catering is important.

 

[Spaceflower]

There are very few true InterCity routes left. However, for me the ones that remain are

Paddington to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance
Paddington to Bristol/Weston-Super-Mare*
Paddington to Cardiff/Swansea/Carmarthen*
Euston to Birmingham/Wolverhampton (Avanti)
Euston to Manchester
Euston to Liverpool
Euston to Preston/Blackpool*/Carlisle/Glasgow/Edinburgh
St Pancras to Sheffield
St Pancras to Nottingham
Kings Cross to Leeds/Bradford/Harrogate*
Kings Cross to York/Newcastle/Edinburgh
Kings Cross to Hull
Liverpool Street to Norwich

I did think briefly about whether Norwich from Liverpool Street still applies, but probably only half of the services do. It stayed on the list for now.

I do not consider CrossCountry or TransPennine to offer InterCity. To me they are regional expresses along with journeys like Leeds to Nottingham, Liverpool to Norwich etc.

The stock on these routes does define what is in the remit of InterCity. I am less wedded to the door orientation, but I do think luggage provision is an important part of the definition. Likewise, toilet provision and scope for catering is important.

Sorry mis-read your post.

I do diagree with your definition of TPE services linking Manchester and Scotlend/NE. They provide high speed services on very new trains on high speed mainlines (the line across the Pennines is being upgraded......)

 

[AngusH]

Topological: I like the list, but I'm not sure what the stars mean?

Are these routes which are sometimes intercity and sometimes not, or is there a different meaning?

 

[Topological]

A thirty year old 158 with a top speed of 90mph running along secondary lines and serving what is mostly short journeys is 'intercity' whereas a brand new 110mph 397 with non-stop mainline running linking two of the UK's most important cities is 'regional express'?

Whose fishing now ?

Very confused.

I put * on the journeys that are extensions only (such as GWR running their InterCity trains to Weston-Super-Mare or Carmarthen not then disqualifying the whole train from Paddington

Unless you confused Liverpool Street with Liverpool Lime Street?

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Topological: I like the list, but I'm not sure what the stars mean?

Are these routes which are sometimes intercity and sometimes not, or is there a different meaning?

They are the extensions to routes that InterCity operators have added and therefore for those services that are extended should not disqualify the full service. However, you would not call all services on the routes mentioned InterCity (If that makes sense)

 

[Spaceflower]

Yes, I did.

 

[Topological]

Sorry mis-read your post.

I do diagree with the TPE services linking Manchester and Scotlend/NE. They provide high speed services on very new trains on high speed mainlines (the line across the Pennines is being upgraded......)

It is a tough one, but the TPE services are the ones to pick up places like Lockerbie and tend to serve all the stations skipped by the Avantis.

I don't think being booked 80x makes a service InterCity.

 

[Spaceflower]

What about the loco hauled tfw services?

Different arguments for and against again?

I've been getting into cab vids over the last two weeks. If it is of interest, have a watch and let me know if it alters your opinion......

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In terms of quality, my expectations for inter-city are

• end doors, not 1/3 & 2/3 or 1/4 & 3/4
• internal doors between vestibule and saloon
• 2+2 seats in standard, 2+1 seats in first
• adequate size luggage stacks and racks
• trolley service or a buffet

Sadly, my expectations are often not met by current TOCs.

Why is the positioning of the doors relevant if there are internal doors?

Look at TGV Duplex coaches, they most certainly are intercity yet don’t have end doors as end doors are not possible for low floor coaches for obvious reasons.

 

[12LDA28C]

I do not consider CrossCountry or TransPennine to offer InterCity. To me they are regional expresses along with journeys like Leeds to Nottingham, Liverpool to Norwich etc.

The stock on these routes does define what is in the remit of InterCity. I am less wedded to the door orientation, but I do think luggage provision is an important part of the definition. Likewise, toilet provision and scope for catering is important.

Not sure how you can claim CrossCountry are not InterCity. Services that connect for example Aberdeen and Penzance or Manchester and Bournemouth are clearly InterCity and they always have been. Whether the rancid Voyagers are worthy of the name is a different matter but the routes and stopping points certainly (and literally) are InterCity.

I don't think you can describe an Aberdeen - Penzance train as a 'regional express'.

 

[Barn]

What about the fastest of the class 444 services out of Waterloo?

 

[Spaceflower]

oh, and Diss and Stowmarket must have grown quite a bit recently?

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It is a tough one, but the TPE services are the ones to pick up places like Lockerbie and tend to serve all the stations skipped by the Avantis.

I don't think being booked 80x makes a service InterCity.

 

[allbarbarry]

Is the Thameslink 2 1/2 hour route between Brighton and Cambridge considered to be InterCity? In that case, you're treated to the luxury of ironing board seats, overhead luggage racks and not much else.

 

[Topological]

What about the loco hauled tfw services?

Different arguments for and against again?

I've been getting into cab vids over the last two weeks. If it is of interest, have a watch and let me know if it alters your opinion......

The quicker TfW admits it cannot run those things the better. Sadly they aren't about to replace them with 197s, but the Mk4s cannot even run 5 diagrams from 7 sets (yesterday was a forced substitution, today is the first day in 2025 they could have done but we had 2 153s on one diagram)

A regional express is the train which picks up the stops that the InterCity services on the route skip (like the TPE do). That is very much what CrossCountry do with their services as well.

 

[Starmill]

To me, an "InterCity" train is precisely that - it's one that stops only at massive population centres. A "regional express" would be one that stops at larger towns, whereas a "commuter train" would be one that stops at every single station. Coaching stock doesn't matter - it is purely the stopping pattern that defines which name it is.

That's just my opinion though. I don't think I've ever seen an official definition anywhere!

There are very few trains in the UK which could be described as meeting this definition. The 0540 Edinburgh to London Kings Cross would be one, the 0700 Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston could be another (as long as two stops in the Greater Manchester conurbation are allowed) as would all Eurostar London services nowadays as they've pruned all stops that aren't in a major conurbation (Calais, Marne-la-Vallée etc.) Even Lumo wouldn't count as usually all serve Morpeth.

The former "Norwich in Ninety" services would have met this definition. The current ones don't as they serve Diss, Stowmarket and Stratford, which can't really be described as centres of large population. London - Sheffield services omitting Chesterfield could count too but there aren't any left.

 

[Topological]

oh, and Diss and Stowmarket must have grown quite a bit recently?

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That was why I thought hard about Norwich. However, there are some trains that skip Diss and Stowmarket? Quick check on RTT says there are none that skip Diss. I am now wondering about that route.

 

[Spaceflower]

That was why I thought hard about Norwich. However, there are some trains that skip Diss and Stowmarket? Quick check on RTT says there are none that skip Diss. I am now wondering about that route.

Yeah, fast commuter trains ....

 

[3141]

I believe the term 'intercity' was conceived by BR as a marketing policy and was designed to convey the image of speed and comfort. It was also a way of differentiating between what was, at the time, profit making markets and loss making markets (Regional Railways). There was also NSE, but I digress.........

In terms of definition, you could include stopping pattern but there's alot on traditional intercity routes that call at smaller stations on at least part of a longer route (such as alot of the exGWR routes) and many mixed services that can be a mix of fast/semi-fast and stopping at different stages along a route. Theres also route distance, market type, speed and comfort.

When there was an earlier discussion along these lines, someone produced a BR map which, if my memory is correct, showed a considerable number of routes which generally wouldn't be regarded as "Intercity" but had one or two services a day that were.

As a marketing policy it makes sense. Once you start enquiring precisely what it does and doesn't mean, what the stopping pattern should be and what kind of stock should operate on it, the definitions become elusive and contradictory.

 

[Topological]

Yeah, fast commuter trains ....

Similar logic applies with the stopper to Nottingham and the slow to Sheffield from St Pancras. But there are at least still hourly trains on the MML to Sheffield and Nottingham that do meet InterCity

Avanti are making some of their routes more Regional Express as well with some of the West Midlands patterns.

 

[Spaceflower]

When there was an earlier discussion along these lines, someone produced a BR map which, if my memory is correct, showed a considerable number of routes which generally wouldn't be regarded as "Intercity" but had one or two services a day that were.

As a marketing policy it makes sense. Once you start enquiring precisely what it does and doesn't mean, what the stopping pattern should be and what kind of stock should operate on it, the definitions become elusive and contradictory.

Hence why I think it all depends upon the rationale for doing it.

 

[Horizon22]

Why is the positioning of the doors relevant if there are internal doors?

It definitely makes it "feel" more like an IC train with end doors rather that mid-coach doors.

 

[Starmill]

What about the fastest of the class 444 services out of Waterloo?

Are Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway or Poole really "centres of massive population"? If using that as the proposed test I don't think you'd get anywhere. This country just hasn't built any railways which do that job, other than the Continental ones which only run a handful of services per day.

Of course, in France, services like that are fairly common e.g. Toulouse Matabiau - Bordeaux St Jean - Paris Montparnasse.