What makes a good livery?

[dorsetdesiro]

I liked Stagecoach's approach as used by SWT and EMT. Especially SWT's colour coded liveries for each type of service into Waterloo, obviously now that all has gone out of the window with the SWR livery as 450s now appear identical to 444s apart from the double doors.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

450s now appear identical to 444s apart from the double doors.

Which makes SWR’s fleet look much tider, especially when one of each class is coupled.

 

[Class360/1]

I do think that the Greater Anglia livery on the Class 745s and 755s looks brilliant - Simple but recognisable and works with the architecture of the vehicles, although it doesn’t work as well on the Aventras due to the shape of the unit.

I agree. The 745/0 livery in particular looks amazing; do we know who designed it?

Dear God no lol. That was my point. Hideous livery amidst hideous times in the East.

That brings back awful flashbacks of the disgustingly hideous baby blue and turquoise background. That being said, the NXEA stipe would have looked good if the colours were different.

There's where "Dynamic Lines" (to me at least) works best whereas GWR doesn't. Taking a Mk3 as a base for example, the "Dynamic Lines" block of colour contrasts nicely against a deep blue background running along a 23 metre vehicle, rising up and down towards each end of the vehicle and contrasting colour door. GWR has a thin silver strip on a dark green base, and the oddly placed near vertical Matt "Sash" vinyl at each right end of the vehicle, which makes it look unbalanced.

I think the dynamic lines liveries would have looked better if the colours were slightly different. However I agree they looked good at speed and in a station.

GWR green looks good on all trains bar the IET’s and HST’s because the livery was incorrectly applied to them.

No more "ONE" style liveries then?

Please no, don’t make it come back to haunt us in Anglia!

Ps: Stagecoach beach ball livery is amazing.

 

[AM9]

And finally, another one I will mention: The effervescent and super smart London Midland. A livery, and a brand, designed by well known design firm Best Impressions, I feel this is one rather much missed livery. Warming, Contrasting with the landscape, sitting well on anything it touched (including the ugly duckling 139) and not too over the top, it was a shame when the Abellio operated WMT / LNWR came along and swept it away with it's "Trebor Mints" inspired livery.

This is the best description of a recent livery that hasn't been bettered by any of the current brands. The LM livery was subtle in its application such that all the rolling stock carrying it wore it well. Green has long been known as a colour that weathers well, (think london country and Green Line buses) and blends in with town and country landscapes equally well. Interestingly LNR created a livery that preserved some of the green aspects of the LM scheme (probably reducing the amount of initial changes needed), but it is haphazard and doesn't sit well with the shape of mopdern rolling stock.
Even modern paint formulations don't weather equally in all colours, and some of the blues and reds show this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think that the Greater Anglia livery on the Class 745s and 755s looks brilliant - Simple but recognisable and works with the architecture of the vehicles, although it doesn’t work as well on the Aventras due to the shape of the unit.

It is interesting that all UK FLIRTs so far are in a livery very similar to their first customer, SBB.

 

[jackot]

Which makes SWR’s fleet look much tider, especially when one of each class is coupled.

Although I do miss being able to quickly tell whether I would be stuck on an uncomfortable 450 or a nice 444 when I would travel from Portsmouth to London, when I knew much less about trains

But yes, it does make the fleet tidier; maybe less characterful; but tidier.

As for the current SWR livery, I’m still undecided, although one thing I like about the current iteration is that they decided to ditch the stripes on the side that they initially planned to put on the whole fleet, which looked very messy and overcomplicated it.

 

[Retorus]

I have many memories of seeing the GNER livery when I was younger so I'm probably biased, but it's still my favourite.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have many memories of seeing the GNER livery when I was younger so I'm probably biased, but it's still my favourite.

I think it worked before the doors needed to be highlighted, but I think it looks utterly awful with the doors in orange.

Talking of London Midland, I think that was one of Best Impressions' finest hours - the whole marketing package, not just the livery. It made a boring commuter operation seem exciting and dynamic, and built a "low cost" market from near-nothing. (I say near because "Silverlink Only" tickets existed to some extent).

I must admit I was a fan of Dynamic Lines, though I disagree with the poster above about the GWR branding package, I think it is excellent - again, the whole package, not just the livery which itself indeed isn't very exciting. Hugely disappointing that Avanti's brand was so weak. And yes, the livery is utterly awful - it's obvious it's vinyl on "dealer white", and the lime green against that white looks terrible.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Although I do miss being able to quickly tell whether I would be stuck on an uncomfortable 450 or a nice 444 when I would travel from Portsmouth to London, when I knew much less about trains

Very true, whenever I see a Desiro in SWR livery, I would immediately look at the doors to check if it is 444 or 450 - if it is a 450, I would go ergh no... lol

This could complicate things a bit when the refurb'd 458s come into service with how similar they look to 450s (the upgraded 458s should be more like LNR's 350s with intercity interiors & 2+2 seating).

Anyone not rail-savvy at Portsmouth Harbour could jump on thinking the train is a 458 for a comfortable journey but to find it is actually a 450 which is packed and is forced to sit on 3+2 seating! Oh dear... ha ha

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone not rail-savvy at Portsmouth Harbour could jump on thinking the train is a 458 for a comfortable journey but to find it is actually a 450 which is packed and is forced to sit on 3+2 seating! Oh dear... ha ha

Given that many if not most LNR services are mixed formations, I don't think people care that much, as loadings tend to be fairly evenly spread.

 

[Mat17]

Provincial Sector's sky blue as on the 142/143s is my favourite livery of all, I just love two toned blue liveries.

 

[Razorblades]

Yes, agreed, the TPE livery is a masterpiece. Do we know who did it?

It was implemented by Aura Brand Solutions, but trying to find/ identify the design agency is proving fruitless.

 

[DarloRich]

an entirely subjective question based on personal whims. You are asking what liveries do I like

 

[pdeaves]

an entirely subjective question based on personal whims. You are asking what liveries do I like

Well, I think the question is asking more why do you like that livery.

 

[Sorcerer]

The old South West Trains fleet is kind on an anomaly when it comes to an operator livery because unlike other TOCs, their trains are colour-coded depending on the type of service they provide in contrast to other operators such as CrossCountry, Greater Anglia and Great Western Railway who also operate with regional and express passenger trains but with a uniform livery. ScotRail does a similar thing with it's HST's in their own branded intercity livery contrasting with the otherwise stopping and regional saltire liveried units. So it's kind of hard to argue their case for meeting a criteria of distinctive and striking when it's dependent on the type of service provided. The Class 444 livery was very much identical to the old East Midlands Trains livery, although that said they are both still distinctive of Stagecoach as a wider brand even if their brand isn't included in the operator name.

Which makes SWR’s fleet look much tider, especially when one of each class is coupled.

Design unity across the fleet might be a benefit for South Western Railway as a brand, but I disagree on their livery looking tidier. The old striped patterns on the side with varying shades of white and blue are not aesthetically pleasing to look at, and it definitely has the issue of obnoxious overbranding with the logo on the end of each coach along with the company name beneath the windows on every coach.

Well, I think the question is asking more why do you like that livery.

I think the best way I can simplify the intent of the thread is that it's more a discussion as to what makes a good livery from both a customer and business point of view which is why I talk about things such as being pleasing to look at along with distinctive designs that help signify the brand of the operator rather than just what people like. As an example, I like the Transport for Wales livery, but on the FLIRT units it doesn't look very distinctive and wouldn't look out of place on the Swiss railway network. The two subjects are of course likely to be correlated of course, and it would be foolish of me to think otherwise, but I'm hoping that we can also largely look beyond our own personal preferences.

 

[507 001]

I think you have made a fair summary of the liveries - I do like GWR but anything with GWR on the side of it be 1930s or now would always make me happy! I like how on the back of each seat back there is a small round GWR monogram as well rather than the circular blank disk that appears to fill the same space say on TfW.

You have not mentioned TfW and I think I do think the current TfW livery is better than the old Arriva livery. It is fairly simple. Though I do wonder why TfW didn't go for a more clearly orientated Wales look. Rather than grey / red - green / white / red? or perhaps have a dragon instead of the "T" logo.

Moving on to things local to me providing they don't subsequently add picture graphics to the new Merseyrail 777 units as the 507/8s gained they will look better. The current units look messy, though once looked quite good. I do question the continuing use of yellow though as it leads to confusion say with Manchester Metrolink which is only a few miles down the road, I think it would have been time to go for a unique look. The old Liverpool Corporation green or Birkenhead Corporation blue.

Yellow is Merseytravel’s colour and has been for the best part of 30 years. Metrolink have only been using yellow since 2009.

 

[Mollman]

To me the best liveries have always been the simple (2 or three colours and no fancy patterns) but looks finished. For that reason I liked GNER, orgional Midland Mainline and Central Trains as well as Regional Railways (inc. Express). The new Northern livery is passable on a 2-car unit but with no colour on centre cars it just looks unfinished, could have done with either blue inner-ends or a blue stripe.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I always liked the maroon Northern Spirit Transpennine express livery, was very classy for its time and suited the 158, it's turquoise counterpart not so much.
Liveries seemed to be more inventive back in those days, but that's the 90s for you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yellow is Merseytravel’s colour and has been for the best part of 30 years. Metrolink have only been using yellow since 2009.

I do find it interesting that there are no logos at all on the 777s, and do wonder if there is, or at one point was, a plan to rebrand the network to something other than Merseyrail on their deployment.

As for Metrolink's yellow I've always thought that was Merseyrail envy Though I guess it's really because of the "bee" thing.

 

[Sorcerer]

Don't forget the Tyne and Wear Metro either. It seems that yellow and silver/grey are a popular choice among local transit train operators. In fact in one of three proposed colour schemes, it's very much identical to the new Merseyrail livery on the 777s. Another proposed design includes a white bodyshell with yellow doors that may break away from this trend of course, but I'm not sure if we know just yet what the new units will look like in their final design.

 

[John Luxton]

Yellow is Merseytravel’s colour and has been for the best part of 30 years. Metrolink have only been using yellow since 2009.

Yes that is a fair point.

The problem I find with yellow is the degree to which it fades. If one looks at infrastructure items on Merseyrail which have been up any length of time they have faded significantly. Not sure it is a good colour. Merseyside has some good old public transport liveries once applied to buses or trams which could have been used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jun 2022 ==

I do find it interesting that there are no logos at all on the 777s, and do wonder if there is, or at one point was, a plan to rebrand the network to something other than Merseyrail on their deployment.

You may be correct in your rebranding comment. I managed to lose my Merseytravel over 60s pass the other week. When a new one was sent out it had a M-Metro logo on it it. I hope that is not going to end up on the trains it hardly identifies or promotes the region - Metro is such a generic term. Merseyrail is a well established brand now dating back 50 years. It isn't broken - does not need fixing - though I would not mind a rebrand to "Mersey Railway(s)"

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may be correct in your rebranding comment. I managed to lose my Merseytravel over 60s pass the other week. When a new one was sent out it had a M-Metro logo on it it. I hope that is not going to end up on the trains it hardly identifies or promotes the region - Metro is such a generic term. Merseyrail is a well established brand now dating back 50 years. It isn't broken - does not need fixing - though I would not mind a rebrand to "Mersey Railway(s)"

Yes, I had wondered if the branding would be (M)Metro. But I agree it would be a sad loss of a distinctive name.

 

[Sorcerer]

I've had a bit of time to think a bit more into this subject, and I think that comparing a livery to international operators might be a bit dubious given that branding only really needs to be distinctive in the market in which they operate, and in this case it's probably been a bit unfair of me to compare the Transport for Wales livery to the SBB livery. While a TfW FLIRT wouldn't look out of place on the Swiss network, there's as much an argument to be made that Virgin's old silver and red might also not look too out of place among the older Thalys fleet. Granted they have had a rebrand in recent years into a new "Ruby" livery which has changed their fleet into a predominantly red colour scheme with a variance in shades, but I this roughly overlapped with Virgin's own rebrand into the transitional flowing silk livery. Perhaps you could still argue that the TfW FLIRT wouldn't look out of place among Anglia FLIRT's but GA have a distinct pattern along the bodyshell that is noticeably different enough, and therefore I think it was wrong of me to knock them down a few points for those reasons.

 

[pdeaves]

[Merseyrail:]

It isn't broken - does not need fixing - though I would not mind a rebrand to "Mersey Railway(s)"

It's possibly related to what appears to be a trend to be non-mode specific. There are both advantages and disadvantages in trying to lump all transport under one brand.

Back to liveries; several people above have declared that they think GWR and/or GNER are good. What do they have in common? Generally bold-but-dark, plain bodyside with a mid-height stripe (and with obligatory yucky-but-there-for-good-reason door colour). Maybe that's one definition of a good livery. That doesn't cover busier liveries like TPE, of course.

 

[Sorcerer]

Back to liveries; several people above have declared that they think GWR and/or GNER are good. What do they have in common? Generally bold-but-dark, plain bodyside with a mid-height stripe (and with obligatory yucky-but-there-for-good-reason door colour). Maybe that's one definition of a good livery. That doesn't cover busier liveries like TPE, of course.

An interesting point which raises it's own question as to whether or not some liveries work better than others and whether or not there is a formula to creating a perfect livery from both a passenger and operator point of view. That said I must disagree slightly on the inclusion of a different door colour. I think with GWR the mid-height stripe works alongside the white doors because of how it doesn't extend across the whole bodyshell and rather just beneath the window area. The thickness of the stripe also plays a part in this though which is why I can sort of see why the GNER livery works better without contrasting door colours given it's thicker stripe, legal necessities aside.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

While on the subject of 458s, if Stagecoach SWT still exists to this day and went through the 442 introduction & withdrawal etc also retaining the colour code system...

The 442s briefly would have had their SWT intercity livery repainted, pretty straightforward from the GatEx livery.

The 458s would have gone back to white for the Portsmouth services - their original livery.

The incoming 701s or extra 707s would be in red, what about the 484s - would these be in red also as it is a local stopping service or in blue as 450s on the Lymington branch?

 

[Sorcerer]

The incoming 701s or extra 707s would be in red, what about the 484s - would these be in red also as it is a local stopping service or in blue as 450s on the Lymington branch?

Since we're talking in pure hypothetical scenarios, I would say the 484s would've been red simply because it's predecessor had the same colour and would be filling a similar role as a local stopper. That is just conjecture on my half though, especially seeing as the 483s didn't seem to have changed colour scheme during it's operation on the Island Line.

 

[pdeaves]

what about the 484s - would these be in red also as it is a local stopping service or in blue as 450s on the Lymington branch?

Blue to match the mainland equivalent or white because Island Line is sort-of autonomous (the original electric units got blue/grey 'intercity' colours before grey was added to almost everything else, and actually had contrasting doors then ages before anyone thought of making that a general requirement).

 

[py_megapixel]

I notice a couple of people have mentioned Avanti and how rubbish their livery is. My feeling is that it would be vastly improved by just making all the coaches the same.

Having the section with the variously coloured angular bits repeat every 1½ coach lengths, so that it sometimes falls on the doors and sometimes in the middle, was probably intended by a marketing agency to make it look "quirky" or something, but it actually just makes it look like it's missing bits.

That said, it's better than Virgin's pathetic attempt at applying Flowing Silk to the Pendolinos - slap it on a bit of the driving cars and leave the rest of the train plain white. They should have at least put the black window bands in.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Pity BR blue/Grey was such a fat boring colour

Yes. I was an absolute avid spotter and photographer in the 1970s. So many of my pictures are boring BR blue. To me, anything that is different than this is good. The colors on the class 69s so far I am loving - really good looking locos.

Virgin West Coast was fantastic. Really good brand recognition there.