What lines should we NOT electrify?

[Trainician]

Why? The Marston Vale Line is part of East West Rail and the rest of the Oakham to Kettering line (Corby to Kettering) is getting electrified as part of MML electrification.

Not many trains are running from Corby to Melton Mowbray and the Marston Vale Line appears to be very tricky to electrify

 

[Bletchleyite]

the Marston Vale Line appears to be very tricky to electrify

In what way? I don't think there's a single tunnel on the whole thing, and hardly any footbridges either.

 

[Trainician]

In what way? I don't think there's a single tunnel on the whole thing, and hardly any footbridges either.

Well the bridge with the midland main line crossing the line is makes things tricky without disruption and the same with the m1 bridge they both will cause disruption

 

[Domh245]

Well the bridge with the midland main line crossing the line is makes things tricky without disruption and the same with the m1 bridge they both will cause disruption

Those aren't particularly challenging, in both cases track lowering will be the order of the day rather than raising the bridges. A blockade of a week or so should easily allow the track to be lowered sufficiently. Electrification will inherently involve some disruption, but those are pretty small fry in the context of electrification challenges

 

[Energy]

Those aren't particularly challenging, in both cases track lowering will be the order of the day rather than raising the bridges. A blockade of a week or so should easily allow the track to be lowered sufficiently. Electrification will inherently involve some disruption, but those are pretty small fry in the context of electrification challenges

Its not like the Marston Vale line is getting trains right now, I believe they have been getting rail replacement buses since the issues with the class 230s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its not like the Marston Vale line is getting trains right now, I believe they have been getting rail replacement buses since the issues with the class 230s.

The present RRBs aren't due to the issues with the 230s, they are because of low staffing levels due to coronavirus.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Batteries aren't the future in trains for 95% in my opinion, they could work for small bits but a lot of energy goes into making a battery and they aren't cheap, hydrogen makes more sense for most routes IMO if full electrification isn't an option.

The best option is electrification for most routes with few not being worth electrification in terms of their carbon footprint, those are usually quite short and would be fine with batteries to be honest, Hydrogen is a temporary solution.

Would a fleet of Hydrogen trains be the best solution for the far North, Kyle of Lochalsh and West Highland lines?

What would the cost of Hydrogen refusing stations at Inverness, Wick, Kyle of Lochalsh, Fort William, Oban and Glasgow be compared to short stretches of electification to recharge batteries on those routes?

 

[Trainician]

Anyway if it does get electrified I wouldn't use the full electrification I would use discontinuous electrification

 

[gg1]

The PPM was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Does anyone know if it's at all realistically possible to build a much larger (maybe a similar length to a 2 car 150) purely electric version, and if so how far would it be able to travel before the flywheels require a power boost? Basically would it be a feasible option for a lightly used branch with relatively closely spaced stations?

 

[Energy]

The PPM was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Does anyone know if it's at all realistically possible to build a much larger (maybe a similar length to a 2 car 150) purely electric version, and if so how far would it be able to travel before the flywheels require a power boost? Basically would it be a feasible option for a lightly used branch with relatively closely spaced stations?

It is offered by PPM but nobody has taken it up, probably because the line would probably need to be operated by PPM (like the Stourbridge Shuttle) to make sure they can get spare parts.

 

[option]

Should be electrified alongside the Snow Hill lines; there's little point in diesel islands, it's so short that it'd just require wires.

Stourbridge should be tram

 

[option]

But if we start finding more than 50% of the electrification in the UK is OHLE, where would that leave 3rd rail land in the south, Tyne and Wear and Liverpool, would that then become the tipping point where 3rd rail land gets changed over too.
The main reason I ask is the crazy amount of victorian infrastructure in 3rd rail land that'd be challenging, expensive and hugely disruptive to adapt I.e footbridges, road bridges tunnels and level crossings.
Much of any budget would be thrown at making adjustments.

Probably cheaper to convert them to bottom-contact third-rail, as most of the infrastructure can be re-used.

 

[A0]

Now, a frequent question that is asked here is "Well, what lines should we electrify?". However, I don't think we should be asking that question.

Instead, I think (and this is me giving my serious opinion) that the question we should be asking is "What lines should we not electrify?". I would assume that the main answers consist of the long, slow, single track, subsidy-dependent branch lines with just a few trains a day (so Esk Valley, Heart of Wales, West Highland Line etc), but I'm interested as to what else would fit the list.

From a practicality point of view I'm not sure electrifying the Looe branch is likely to happen - the area around Terras Bridge looks particularly challenging.....

 

[A0]

Probably cheaper to convert them to bottom-contact third-rail, as most of the infrastructure can be re-used.

The likelihood of changing the 3rd rail pick up method is pretty much zero (though not sure how Tyneside got mentioned in that as that's not been 3rd rail for over 50 years).

Yes, metro systems like the DLR will continue using something different but for heavy rail introducing another system will cause more problems that it will solve. More likely is that we'll see some of the longer 3rd rail lines converted to OHLE - starting I suspect with the SWML because overhead will arrive at Basingstoke (from Reading) and continue on down to Southampton initially - and electrifying to places like Salisbury will happen using OHLE.

 

[MB162435]

Can't see the Cornish branch lines being electrified, the Mainline possibly way into the future one day but the cost of electrifying Cornwall's lines would be enormous, so alternative power options would be better

The Cornish branch lines especially the St Ives and Looe lines would be good candidates for battery operation when diesel power becomes obsolete, the Falmouth and Newquay lines could be worthwhile electrifying but no real need if alternatives are available

 

[HSTEd]

Can't see the Cornish branch lines being electrified, the Mainline possibly way into the future one day but the cost of electrifying Cornwall's lines would be enormous, so alternative power options would be better

The Cornish branch lines especially the St Ives and Looe lines would be good candidates for battery operation when diesel power becomes obsolete, the Falmouth and Newquay lines could be worthwhile electrifying but no real need if alternatives are available

Those branches have negligible length.
They will require no power supply systems, or possibly even separate isolation features.

Cutting them off the scheme seems pretty absurd.

Also isnt the St Ives branch one of the most intensively operated railways in the UK?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't see the Cornish branch lines being electrified, the Mainline possibly way into the future one day but the cost of electrifying Cornwall's lines would be enormous, so alternative power options would be better

The Cornish branch lines especially the St Ives and Looe lines would be good candidates for battery operation when diesel power becomes obsolete, the Falmouth and Newquay lines could be worthwhile electrifying but no real need if alternatives are available

This kind of self-contained branch would be a good candidate for conversion to light rail using Sheffield style vehicles, making the whole operation cheaper and more accessible, and using DC OHLE to power it. Though it might, Windermere-style, be cheaper just to whack up 25kV and connect it to the mainline when that's done.

I don't know the branches well - are there any where that would additionally offer the option to run the line down the street to a terminus in a more central location?

 

[MB162435]

Those branches have negligible length.
They will require no power supply systems, or possibly even separate isolation features.

Cutting them off the scheme seems pretty absurd.

Also isnt the St Ives branch one of the most intensively operated railways in the UK?

It's got a frequent service, not sure how intensive it is in the UK but pretty regular about the same half-hour frequency as the Falmouth line, well under a normal timetable it is

Can't see it being absurd not to electrify the line, many would say overlines would spoil the view and the cost of it would only make it worth it if alternatives weren't viable, and there is many, many lines across the country that would be more important than the Cornish lines, not saying they will never be electrified but they don't need to be with many alternative motive powers available or currently under development, that could be trailed on branches such as the St Ives line

This kind of self-contained branch would be a good candidate for conversion to light rail using Sheffield style vehicles, making the whole operation cheaper and more accessible, and using DC OHLE to power it. Though it might, Windermere-style, be cheaper just to whack up 25kV and connect it to the mainline when that's done.

I don't know the branches well - are there any where that would additionally offer the option to run the line down the street to a terminus in a more central location?

All the branch line terminuses are pretty central, Newquay for example terminates right in the town centre, so none of the terminuses need to be moved and the town centres are pretty built up so not many spaces to build a new station

Don't think the Government would want to spend loads on electrifying lines that are only heavily used during the Summer if cheaper alternatives are possibly available

 

[HSTEd]

It's got a frequent service, not sure how intensive it is in the UK but pretty regular about the same half-hour frequency as the Falmouth line, well under a normal timetable it is

Can't see it being absurd not to electrify the line, many would say overlines would spoil the view and the cost of it would only make it worth it if alternatives weren't viable, and there is many, many lines across the country that would be more important than the Cornish lines, not saying they will never be electrified but they don't need to be with many alternative motive powers available or currently under development, that could be trailed on branches such as the St Ives line

Two trains an hour on a single track line is not insignificant.
And such a short line will require no secondary infrastructure.

Don't think the Government would want to spend loads on electrifying lines that are only heavily used during the Summer if cheaper alternatives are possibly available

Even averaging annual demand summer and winter it's going to rate higher than many other routes.

The ordering of dedicated battery units for it will pay for the cost of the wiring.
And the charging power in the ultra short turnarounds will be absurd and possibly unachievable

 

[MB162435]

Two trains an hour on a single track line is not insignificant.
And such a short line will require no secondary infrastructure.



Even averaging annual demand summer and winter it's going to rate higher than many other routes.

The ordering of dedicated battery units for it will pay for the cost of the wiring.
And the charging power in the ultra short turnarounds will be absurd and possibly unachievable

Not saying it never will be electrified or there is no need but when you have many mainlines not electrified it would be stupid electrifying minor branch lines until pretty much all major routes are

You can't have a partially electrified Midland Mainline and Trans-Pennine but fully electrified Cornish branch lines, plus if they were to be electrified all the other Western routes would need be, everything ends in Cornwall after all

When living in Cornwall, you quickly realise you're not at the top of many priority lists, especially for infrastructure projects, the loop line on the Falmouth line was only built with European Union money, so you're looking at the 2040s at the earliest until electrification beckons for Cornwall