What lines should we NOT electrify?

[py_megapixel]

The German stuff isn't pretty but they paint it green, which very much helps it blend in. But it can be made very pretty indeed, look at some of the tram systems.

A good example of this is the Ashton extension of the Manchester Metrolink, where the tall black posts actually look quite elegant.

But I don't understand why OHLE gets so much hate but lineside fences - far uglier IMO - do not.

 

[furnessvale]

Even if they don't I would honestly rather have the OHLE looking a bit ugly than noisy diesel engines in a national park.
Plus it's not like modern signalling infrastructure or Network Rail's lineside fences are beautiful.

Or indeed the alternative convoys of HGVs.

 

[Killingworth]

There is so much that is accepted to need electrifying now that we're talking at least 20 years before we get to these long stretches of mostly single track in wilder and isolated country. By that time we may have considered the cost and practicality of maintaining OHLE to serve such uneconomic lines.

Hopefully over the next 20 years we'll have found some more practical form of propulsion to allow diesel to be withdrawn without all the infrastructure needed for presently available electrification systems.

Incidentally, electrifying the Hope Valley line might upset some with allegedly unsightly masts, but the biggest obstacle on this route between Manchester and Sheffield is its underground nature, three tunnels at Disley, Cowburn and Totley totalling almost 8 miles. They'd require a lot of blockade time to electrify conventionally, and they're very wet to cause corrosion. Any electrification project will probably have to include some form of alternative power or battery booster through unwired tunnels, so that will put it well down, if not out of, the queue. That said they're currently planning a new footbridge to electrification spec. at Hathersage West costing £750k to replace a little used public right of way crossing!

 

[randyrippley]

Weymouth tramway

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Highland Mainlne

Will get electrified. It is part of connecting the 7 cities and Scotland is very pro-electrification. It will happen though obviously I would think Stirling-Perth-Dundee will happen first. Perth is a prerequisite anyway.

 

[Starmill]

We shouldn't electrify any routes where rail has no place in 'net zero' carbon future.

We know that battery technology and 'other', where other is likely to include hydrogen and very light rail (like the Parry People Mover) can fill in small areas where overhead wires won't be able to go, but this is limited. It's not a catch-all solution.

A good example of this is Girvan to Stranraer. It's a long route with legacy signalling, no intermediate population and low frequency. It has lost relevance, permanently, because it fails to connect with Ferry services, it's one station is very poorly sited, and more importantly it's impossible, now, to offer a direct service to a large city nearby in reasonable time.

Ayr - Girvan offers fast, direct commuting opportunities to Glasgow, if electrified, and an opportunity to exploit at least one new station site. A ScotRail bus service could connect Girvan to Cairnryan and Stranraer better than the train ever could - and at massively lower carbon cost.

This sort of thing is, of course, politically explosive. But it's also the truth: we can't run empty diesel trains through open countryside forever, nor could we possibly electrify Girvan to Stranraer.

 

[Whistler40145]

Lines that have limited traffic are pointless being electrified

 

[BigCj34]

We shouldn't electrify any routes where rail has no place in 'net zero' carbon future.

We know that battery technology and 'other', where other is likely to include hydrogen and very light rail (like the Parry People Mover) can fill in small areas where overhead wires won't be able to go, but this is limited. It's not a catch-all solution.

A good example of this is Girvan to Stranraer. It's a long route with legacy signalling, no intermediate population and low frequency. It has lost relevance, permanently, because it fails to connect with Ferry services, it's one station is very poorly sited, and more importantly it's impossible, now, to offer a direct service to a large city nearby in reasonable time.

Ayr - Girvan offers fast, direct commuting opportunities to Glasgow, if electrified, and an opportunity to exploit at least one new station site. A ScotRail bus service could connect Girvan to Cairnryan and Stranraer better than the train ever could - and at massively lower carbon cost.

This sort of thing is, of course, politically explosive. But it's also the truth: we can't run empty diesel trains through open countryside forever, nor could we possibly electrify Girvan to Stranraer.

But if that bridge to Ireland gets built the line could be useful!

Having had a quick browse on Rome2Rio journey times from Stranraer to Girvan are quicker by rail, and people are more inclined to use a train than a bus in the UK. if those 769's are still available there are always bi-modes...

 

[Starmill]

But if that bridge to Ireland gets built the line could be useful!

Having had a quick browse on Rome2Rio journey times from Stranraer to Girvan are quicker by rail, and people are more inclined to use a train than a bus in the UK. if those 769's are still available there are always bi-modes...

It's typically 57 min by rail and its under 30 miles by road so it generally will be quicker.

 

[eddp]

2 hours plus from Barrow to Carlisle, I know battery performance is improving and will improve but not sure about this being feasible, but prepared for someone who knows about these things to correct me. The other issue is charging the batteries to get from Carlisle to Barrow. Okay could wire up platform 2 at Carlisle but usually most services are roll in then roll back out again, so little charging time. There is also the issue of what happens to services that are not going past Barrow or that might start there, or even, either routinely or due to disruption, services that run Carlisle to Whitehaven one way or Barrow to Whitehaven or Workington the other.

If you wire to Barrow in Furness, and I am not against this idea, then either the Cumbrian Coast is left as a diesel island, albeit a long island, or I think other technologies would be needed, say hydrogen.

How about electrifying Carlisle to Whitehaven coming down from the other end as well? That should give enough time to charge the batteries and also moves at least some services to being fully under the wires, plus that part of the line isn't the "pretty" part to start with

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about electrifying Carlisle to Whitehaven coming down from the other end as well? That should give enough time to charge the batteries and also moves at least some services to being fully under the wires, plus that part of the line isn't the "pretty" part to start with

I did wonder about that - that would only leave the short "middle bit" without the wires which should be workable on battery.

 

[HSTEd]

You could electrify the section in the vicinity of Sellafield, they have proper grid connections there as a relic of the power station(s).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

How about electrifying Carlisle to Whitehaven coming down from the other end as well? That should give enough time to charge the batteries and also moves at least some services to being fully under the wires, plus that part of the line isn't the "pretty" part to start with

Sounds like it is at least worth investigating imho

 

[HSTEd]

Supposedly a Class 350 consumes ~6.7kWh per train-km.

I make is ~140km or so.

~1MWh consumed in the journey.

Rated power of a Class 350 is 1500kW.

So it will take something 40 minutes to recharge if it runs the transformer flat out and is consuming negligible power.
That is quite a layover.

Course you can overrate the transformer substantially.
If PETTs (using power electronics to reduce the mass of the transformer) are actually practical the weight of the transformer shrinks by a rather large amount, and you could put a TGV power-car rated transformer into a multiple unit.
At which charging time is only rated by the recharging speed of the batteries themselves.......

 

[Killingworth]

How about electrifying Carlisle to Whitehaven coming down from the other end as well? That should give enough time to charge the batteries and also moves at least some services to being fully under the wires, plus that part of the line isn't the "pretty" part to start with

What lines should we NOT electrify - or for a very long time? I'd say concentrate on the major lines for the next 20 years. There's enough of them. Certainly consider to Barrow at the south end.

It's a long way from there to Carlisle so I see any electrification as very low down any list, by which time we'll have had time to rethink the whole railway network not just electric propulsion systems. However, some routes will be selected to trial new techniques. Who knows what may be coming along in 20 years time.

 

[S&CLER]

What lines should we NOT electrify - or for a very long time? I'd say concentrate on the major lines for the next 20 years. There's enough of them. Certainly consider to Barrow at the south end.

It's a long way from there to Carlisle so I see any electrification as very low down any list, by which time we'll have had time to rethink the whole railway network not just electric propulsion systems. However, some routes will be selected to trial new techniques. Who knows what may be coming along in 20 years time.

Any money that can be spared for Barrow-Carlisle would be far better spent on resignalling first. Electrification from Carnforth to Barrow would be welcome because of the scope for through running from the south, but it might pose problems with platform canopies at Grange and Ulverston (similar to the listed canopies at Kettering on the MML).

 

[Bletchleyite]

How far from a mainline does one have to be before just connecting it up there no longer works? It's been said it would work for Windermere, hence that being a cheap project. Could Ormskirk just be strung off the WCML, for example? Kirkby? Southport?

(I know the Wallgate bridge is an issue, but that could be done as a non-powered solid bar and coasted through, perhaps move the station back a bit if it would need more of a run-up).

 

[gg1]

The downside to that is that 3 carriages (or even two) will always be overkill for the line- so if you electrify you still end up with either a micro fleet of 1/2-car electric units, or massive overcapacity with extended turnarounds. As battery technology improves, simply replacing the small diesel generator with a battery and motor to start the flywheel would make more sense.

An electric version of a PPM could also be an option, whereby only the stations are electrified and this gives the flywheel enough juice to make the journey along the branch. 25kv AC would be overkill for this and as the units would never run on the mainline anyway, a non-standard electrification system would be acceptable.

 

[HSTEd]

Is a 3-car Class 377-alike really going to be horrendous overcapacity?

That seems somewhat doubtful.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

An electric version of a PPM could also be an option, whereby only the stations are electrified and this gives the flywheel enough juice to make the journey along the branch. 25kv AC would be overkill for this and as the units would never run on the mainline anyway, a non-standard electrification system would be acceptable.

Battery power in general is currently in "gadgetbahn" territory, but a line like Stourbridge would be an ideal application for battery power at the stage the technology is at today. If the class 139s hadn't happened and the line was still being operated with a 153, it would be ideal for a battery trial- perhaps Vivarail could knock up a single-car 230?

I see the argument that wiring the branch would be a simple job, but whatever the solution it will almost certainly involve bespoke rolling stock dedicated to the line. Running it with a standard 3-car unit would extend turnarounds significantly, so you'd probably have to reduce frequency. A non-standard electrification would not have the advantage of being fed from the main line without some sort of non-standard switchgear, so that adds to the "not as simple as it looks" situation.

Does anyone know what the expected lifespan of the 139s is? Until they reach that point (unless they can be converted to battery power before then) I can't see any changes happening.

 

[221129]

They'd require a lot of blockade time to electrify conventionally, and they're very wet to cause corrosion

Shouldn't be too much of an issue. A lot of wet tunnels are electrified.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see the argument that wiring the branch would be a simple job, but whatever the solution it will almost certainly involve bespoke rolling stock dedicated to the line. Running it with a standard 3-car unit would extend turnarounds significantly, so you'd probably have to reduce frequency.

4tph would be quite adequate with the capacity of a regular EMU.

TBH, if the Snow Hill lines are wired (as they should be) it would be a cheap extension and easiest just to use whatever EMUs that used.

 

[S&CLER]

How far from a mainline does one have to be before just connecting it up there no longer works? It's been said it would work for Windermere, hence that being a cheap project. Could Ormskirk just be strung off the WCML, for example? Kirkby? Southport?

(I know the Wallgate bridge is an issue, but that could be done as a non-powered solid bar and coasted through, perhaps move the station back a bit if it would need more of a run-up).

Four of the 10 overbridges (by my count, from OS map) between Ormskirk and Farington Curve Junction are south of Burscough Junction station, another argument in favour of making that the voltage changeover point, if third rail were extended from Ormskirk. Maybe you could slew the line north of Rufford into the centre of the formation, and get clearance through the bridges that way. That would make subsequent re-doubling more difficult, but would it ever be necessary anyway? Cocker Bar Bridge near Bretherton needs rebuilding anyway, as its tortuous approach is a hazard to road traffic, and the opportunity could be taken to raise the clearance.

 

[Taunton]

There are ways of doing this. The Swiss Alps is one such example. OHLE can be designed to be aesthetically pleasing (relatively) - it would just cost a little extra - probably.

The irony is that the appalling mess of overheads that now plague the GW main line are a Swiss design ...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The irony is that the appalling mess of overheads that now plague the GW main line are a Swiss design ...

I never knew that lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

Four of the 10 overbridges (by my count, from OS map) between Ormskirk and Farington Curve Junction are south of Burscough Junction station, another argument in favour of making that the voltage changeover point, if third rail were extended from Ormskirk.

I still argue for making Burscough Bridge the changeover point between Merseyrail and the Preston line - this would have the benefit of a single-unit hourly service being workable, and provide excellent connections to Southport and Wigan/Manchester.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I still argue for making Burscough Bridge the changeover point between Merseyrail and the Preston line - this would have the benefit of a single-unit hourly service being workable, and provide excellent connections to Southport and Wigan/Manchester.

I definitely agree but I am a big fan on reinstatement of the curves too. Preston to Southport direct

 

[Elecman]

I definitely agree but I am a big fan on reinstatement of the curves too. Preston to Southport direct

Not exactly direct but much better than today

 

[Taunton]

I never knew that lol

Headquarters in Berne

Furrer+Frey overhead contact lines - Series1 in Cardiff

The 08.50 from Cardiff to London-Paddington: the first electric passenger train under Furrer+Frey's Series1 OLE at Cardiff.

www.furrerfrey.ch

 

[Killingworth]

Shouldn't be too much of an issue. A lot of wet tunnels are electrified.

8 miles of tunnels with difficult alternative paths for freight and passenger diversions certainly is an issue.