What is wrong with Northern Rail?

[Greybeard33]

I believe that is referring to the current ongoing refresh that is seeing the trains given a thorough clean and fitted with new seat covers. There has been no indication that Northern have any intention giving the Pacers a proper ATW-style refurb and changing the seating.

142050 is sporting new seat covers (and cushions?) on its 2+2 seating. However, I believe the seats themselves date back to the ATN refurb? Otherwise it just appears to have had a deep clean.

The 2+2 layout gives a wider aisle, so I suspect the crush-loaded capacity is greater than 3+2 - an advantage on some Northern services.

 

[thenorthern]

If I remember correctly though didn't First North Western still operate class 101s on the Rose Hill Marple services until 10 years ago when according to wikipedia the oldest 101s were 47 years old. Going by that standard the pacers have got about another 20 years still in them though somehow I very much doubt it.

 

[northwichcat]

If I remember correctly though didn't First North Western still operate class 101s on the Rose Hill Marple services until 10 years ago when according to wikipedia the oldest 101s were 47 years old. Going by that standard the pacers have got about another 20 years still in them though somehow I very much doubt it.

Well two points here:
1. The 101s were the last remaining of the 1st gen DMUs. They were kept in service because they fared better than the 103s, 108s etc.
2. There were only 6 still in service and they were due to be withdrawn in 2000 but teething problems with the 175s meant they were needed to do an extra 3 years.

So on the same basis out of all the 142s, 143s, 144s and 150s possibly 6 of them could be kept in service until 2030.

 

[sprinterguy]

142050 is sporting new seat covers (and cushions?) on its 2+2 seating. However, I believe the seats themselves date back to the ATN refurb? Otherwise it just appears to have had a deep clean.

Yep, that is the refresh that I am referring to over the top of the existing Northern Spirit/ATN interiors.

 

[thenorthern]

Well two points here:
1. The 101s were the last remaining of the 1st gen DMUs. They were kept in service because they fared better than the 103s, 108s etc.
2. There were only 6 still in service and they were due to be withdrawn in 2000 but teething problems with the 175s meant they were needed to do an extra 3 years.

So on the same basis out of all the 142s, 143s, 144s and 150s possibly 6 of them could be kept in service until 2030.

Very good point.

 

[ryan125hst]

This is not a very good achievement. It is a disgrace. Yes we would rather a Pacer than no train at all, but that is the point isn't it? Better than nothing. The best that can be said of a Pacer, a truly awful experience and one that should be prevented from continuing. Every time I hear a whine about 377s, 450s, or any other South Eastern commuter train, I despair. These people should be made to ride on a Pacer for 30 minutes, as should every DoT MP and civil servant.

I don't think the Pacer's are as bad as many people say they are. I've travelled on them (mostly 142's, but I did get one 144) between Retford and Sheffield or Meadowhall about four times so far this year, and I'll be on one again tomorrow. While I would agree that the Sprinters are better trains, on welded track with few tight curves, they are fine.

Mind you, there's only a very small amount of jointed track on that route and the only screeching is when pulling into Sheffield station. I bet there are routes that are terrible on a Pacer!
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The main gripe I had with NT is that some of the guards seemed reluctant to venture from their cabs to sell tickets, OK I can understand it if the train is busy, but this happened even on very quiet trains, delaying honest PAX at their destination, or giving others a "free ride". I use the word "had" because since the barriers were installed at HUD, and some "new faces" on the trains the "problem" seems to have been sorted.

From my experience, Northern have been very good at revenue checks. I've travelled between Retford and York a few times without having my ticket checked, yet I think every time I have travelled with Northern, my ticket has been checked. Mind you, while the train does stop more frequently, I suppose it's easier to check tickets on a 2 car train than a 9 car train!

 

[Stonesourscotty]

The Wigan Line to Manchester is a hotbed of lazy conductors recently... reckon i've had my ticket checked once in the past few months? interestingly enough if you travel Kirkby bound from Wigan these mythical conductors start checking tickets again

 

[alwaystouchout]

The only thing that lets Northern Rail down is some of its atrocious rolling stock..Pacers I'm thinking of you.

However, its fleet have always been clean and well maintained, and I've never had any problems travelling with them. As most of their routes are simply commuter routes there's not much more to expect really.

 

[6Gman]

A common myth. The majority of Pacers have always been used on suburban services that were never in danger of closure. The Cornish branches survived after the initial batch of WR Pacers was moved elesewhere.

Well, I was on a railway management course some years ago where the Pacers were described as an essential tool in establishing that Regional Railways could justify new build.

Without Pacers we would never have got Sprinters!

It's also worth pointing out that Pacers have been used on non-suburban services [whatever that means!] e.g. North Wales.

 

[CalderRail]

The Pacers are terrible, especially the 144s, but people would (will, come their mandatory replacement in 2019) complain at the higher fares needed to hire anything else from the ROSOCO (Angel Trains, IIRC).

Things I don't like about Northern:

The barriers at Bradford create a safety risk and a huge crush during morning rush, because almost everyone travelling is using WYMetro tickets, which can't automatically open the barriers. Removing the barriers and doing proper ticket checks on the trains would be much better.

On the few occasions I have to go to Manchester, it's sometimes been impossible to buy a ticket because Northern run pairs of 144s coupled together, and there's only a guard in one half (144s having no connecting passageway).

The Class 155s and 158s stink. The toilets are terrible... except when the toilets have been sealed shut, which is a problem in itself.

Northern appear to hate the idea that locals might want their station to look nice, or even just different from every other station everywhere.

 

[thenorthern]

The Pacers are terrible, especially the 144s, but people would (will, come their mandatory replacement in 2019) complain at the higher fares needed to hire anything else from the ROSOCO (Angel Trains, IIRC).

Things I don't like about Northern:

The barriers at Bradford create a safety risk and a huge crush during morning rush, because almost everyone travelling is using WYMetro tickets, which can't automatically open the barriers. Removing the barriers and doing proper ticket checks on the trains would be much better.

On the few occasions I have to go to Manchester, it's sometimes been impossible to buy a ticket because Northern run pairs of 144s coupled together, and there's only a guard in one half (144s having no connecting passageway).

The Class 155s and 158s stink. The toilets are terrible... except when the toilets have been sealed shut, which is a problem in itself.

Northern appear to hate the idea that locals might want their station to look nice, or even just different from every other station everywhere.

Do they need to be withdrawn though, I read it was something to do with them not being wheelchair accessible, I doubt that is the case as about half the station footbridges in the country would need modifying to comply.

 

[Manchester77]

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/14x Brochure.pdf

 

[yorksrob]

The Pacers are terrible, especially the 144s, but people would (will, come their mandatory replacement in 2019) complain at the higher fares needed to hire anything else from the ROSOCO (Angel Trains, IIRC).go to Manchester, it's sometimes been impossible to buy a ticket because Northern run pairs of 144s coupled together, and there's only a guard in one half (144s having no connecting passageway).

144's worse than 142's My goodness !

 

[CalderRail]

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/14x Brochure.pdf

143s & 144s. I thought Angel owned all the 144s. Or am I mistaken and they own all the 142s?

 

[455driver]

144's worse than 142's My goodness !

Yeah, I didnt bother reading the rest of the post after that!

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, I didnt bother reading the rest of the post after that!

Well, to be fair he's got a point - the 158 loos can be a bit whiffy

 

[CalderRail]

Yeah, I didnt bother reading the rest of the post after that!

The ride quality on the 144s is worse than the 142s, in my experience.

Also I have to ride 144s a lot more than 142s, which may skew my view of them.

Read the rest of my post though - I'm not wrong about the problems at Bradford or getting ticket en route to Manc.

 

[AndyLandy]

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/14x Brochure.pdf

Bloody hell! You can polish a turd!

 

[thenorthern]

The ride quality on the 144s is worse than the 142s, in my experience.

Also I have to ride 144s a lot more than 142s, which may skew my view of them.

Read the rest of my post though - I'm not wrong about the problems at Bradford or getting ticket en route to Manc.

Personally I find the ride quality on 142s more rough, never had an issue with the 144s except at Carnforth Station.

You can't really blame Northern Rail for Bradford Interchange, although its technically managed by Northern a large amount of it done by Metro.

 

[yorksrob]

Crappy connections everywhere.

They have one train going north out of Preston and they somehow manage to have a four minute connection with the train from Leeds, which is less than useless.

Then all the follow on trains are the dreaded TPE.

It really is farcical having these as seperate companies and the sooner they are merged into one franchise the better.

 

[northwichcat]

Crappy connections everywhere.

I don't agree with that. Northern Rail services usually do have good connections if you're connecting to a London service but quite often in other instances connections aren't as good.

 

[yorksrob]

Just to add further examples, connections between the Settle Carlisle and Hexham line aren‘t much to write home about either.

The morning connection from Leeds to the Whitby branch is too close for comfort.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I find the ride quality on 142s more rough, never had an issue with the 144s except at Carnforth Station.

I agree the 144s ride better. Although I've only done two lines on both on the same day being Bradford to Huddersfield and Adwick to Doncaster.

The issue at Carnforth would be the same with any type of Pacer and I think like the curvy track near Navigation Road it would even cause a Sprinter to squeal a bit.

Leaving Lincoln station on a 144 I was shocked at how little it squealed given the numerous complaints I'd seen about Pacers squealing at Lincoln. It wasn't any worse than a 142 leaving Manchester Piccadilly station.
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http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/14x Brochure.pdf

Bloody hell! You can polish a turd!

If you look at the brochure that's a possible option for Porterbrook 143s and 144s only (Angel Trains have said their 142s will not be given a complaint refurbishment) and would make the seated capacity of the units around 80.

Porterbrook have dismissed the option of making 153s complaint so I would imagine the proposed low capacity complaint Pacers would be seen as a replacement offering for the withdrawn 153s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just to add further examples, connections between the Settle Carlisle and Hexham line aren‘t much to write home about either.

The morning connection from Leeds to the Whitby branch is too close for comfort.

It does depend which lines people want to make connections to/from. The Mid-Cheshire line has good connections to Sheffield but poor connections to Wigan/Southport (except on Sundays.) If services were re-timed to give better connections to Wigan/Southport then the connections to Sheffield would likely be poorer.

 

[tbtc]

Crappy connections everywhere.

They have one train going north out of Preston and they somehow manage to have a four minute connection with the train from Leeds, which is less than useless.

Then all the follow on trains are the dreaded TPE.

It really is farcical having these as seperate companies and the sooner they are merged into one franchise the better.

At a busy station like Preston, amending one connection only messes up another.

Presumably you are talking about the Barrow service (as the only Northern train going north out of Preston)? But for it to connect with the Leeds service may muck up the connection to the Liverpool service or to a Manchester service...

Connections are one thing at a rural station that has infrequent services, but impossible for everything at somewhere like Preston to connect.

I'm not sure how having lots of separate companies can be blamed for one Northern service not connecting with another Northern service though?

Just to add further examples, connections between the Settle Carlisle and Hexham line aren‘t much to write home about either

What demand is there to go from the S&C to Hexham though? Anyone going from West Yorkshire to Tyneside is going to take the ECML via York/ Darlington, so that leaves a pretty tiny number wanting do so something like Appleby to Haltwhistle (compared to those wanting to get from the southern WCML to Hexham or the S&C to Scotland).

 

[yorksrob]

Me - on one occasion.

I guess I must just go to awkward places !

 

[thenorthern]

Me - on one occasion.

I guess I must just go to awkward places !

On the two routes you were travelling on neither has a clock face timetable which can mean connections at Carlisle can be longer.

I have had to wait at Skipton for ages before to get from the Lancaster train onto to Carlisle train but I know both lines are lucky to still be open so I am grateful that I can still do the journey.

 

[yorksrob]

On the two routes you were travelling on neither has a clock face timetable which can mean connections at Carlisle can be longer.

I have had to wait at Skipton for ages before to get from the Lancaster train onto to Carlisle train but I know both lines are lucky to still be open so I am grateful that I can still do the journey.

I‘m grateful that the lines are still open, but I also think "could do better".

 

[ryan125hst]

The Class 155s and 158s stink. The toilets are terrible... except when the toilets have been sealed shut, which is a problem in itself.

I've never used a toilet on a Northern Rail train, but they always seem to be working when I've been on them. About three people used it on the 153 I was on between Sheffield and Retford earlier today. The "toilet engaged" light in the saloon looked very old!

By sealed shut, do you mean locked because of a fault/vandalism, or do you mean physically sealed shut and never used?

 

[thenorthern]

I‘m grateful that the lines are still open, but I also think "could do better".

Define could do better.

 

[47802]

Bloody hell! You can polish a turd!

No you carnt, It should be a stated aim to have these removed from the railway before 2020.

As I see it Railbuses served their purpose form an era of a not very pro rail govenment and without them some lines might have closed. However things of moved on a bit, they have really served there alloted design life and it time they went.