What is point in having a timetable

[kuepper]

I recently downloaded a Northern Rail timetable to help plan a holiday and after checking for strike dates went ahead and booked the holiday returning on 10th May.

When I went to book the train tickets the train I expected to get for the final leg of my return journey (23.29 from Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop) was no longer showing and the last train is now at 2233 which is too early for me to catch.

I'll now have to book a hotel or pay a taxi which I'd guess at £40.

I tried complaining over the phone to Northern Rail and got some waffle about lack of rolling stock or drivers meant the timetable had been amended - but how would anyone know that when the timetable on the website is unchanged? What is the point in having a timetable if you can't rely on it, is there no comeback on train companies for pulling this trick?

 

[AdamWW]

I recently downloaded a Northern Rail timetable to help plan a holiday and after checking for strike dates went ahead and booked the holiday returning on 10th May.

When I went to book the train tickets the train I expected to get for the final leg of my return journey (23.29 from Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop) was no longer showing and the last train is now at 2233 which is too early for me to catch.

I'll now have to book a hotel or pay a taxi which I'd guess at £40.

I tried complaining over the phone to Northern Rail and got some waffle about lack of rolling stock or drivers meant the timetable had been amended - but how would anyone know that when the timetable on the website is unchanged? What is the point in having a timetable if you can't rely on it, is there no comeback on train companies for pulling this trick?

Welcome to the modern railway.

The timetable is now, so far as I know, whatever they decide it should be at 10pm the day before.

Any planning further ahead than that is at your own risk.

 

[Robski]

The 23:29 from Manchester to Glossop has been replaced by a bus on 10th May due to engineering work. So it is running, albeit not as a train. This revised schedule applies from 8th May to 11th May.

From National Rail Enquiries:

Engineering work is taking place between Manchester Piccadilly and Hadfield, closing some lines.

As a result the 23:29 Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop service will be replaced by a bus throughout.

One bus will run from Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield (calling at Ashburys, Gorton, Guide Bridge, Flowery Field, Newton for Hyde, Godley, Glossop and Dinting). A second bus will run between Godley and Hadfield (calling at Hattersley, Broadbottom, Glossop and Dinting).

Check before you travel:

You can plan your journey using the National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner

Replacement Bus Travel Advice:

For helpful advice if you need to travel on a rail replacement service, including accessibility and bicycle information, please use this page.

You can find the location of your replacement bus by checking station signs or by searching for your station on our station information pages.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is the (late evening) rail replacement bus showing in online timetables yet?

 

[swt_passenger]

A downloaded timetable for a period, just like a hard copy picked up from a station, wouldn’t help you with routine engineering works either. You’d always have to check that separately nearer the time anyway.

I think a timetable is just a guide to what they intend to run in the absence of any other problems.

 

[M&NEJ]

I think a timetable is just a guide to what they intend to run in the absence of any other problems.

I'm sure there is a lot more detail in a franchise tender, such as number of services per day at particular stations, maximum interval between services and perhaps a specification of earliest or latest services in the day.

In my view a timetable should be regarded as a contract between society and the TOC; but we seem to have reached a stage where we are becoming tolerant of far less than that!

 

[30907]

Is the (late evening) rail replacement bus showing in online timetables yet?

Presumably not. RTT shows the train as cancelled but no bus.

I doubt the Northern staff the OP spoke to knew the specific situation, hence the general waffle about cancellations

 

[kuepper]

The 23:29 from Manchester to Glossop has been replaced by a bus on 10th May due to engineering work. So it is running, albeit not as a train. This revised schedule applies from 8th May to 11th May.

From National Rail Enquiries:

Have you a link for that information as I can't find it on National Rail website or Northern Rail? That's good news if true but I had also phoned National Rail Enquiries and when I told them of the issue they told me to contact Northern rail, no mention of Engineering works

 

[The exile]

What a timetable (and here I mean something published well in advance with a long-term validity - May to December for example) should be is a document which sets out what services will run or for which reasonable alternatives / compensation must be provided. A "reasonable alternative" at times of disruption is clearly not going to be exactly the same as published (otherwise it wouldn't be an alternative) but, in particular "last trains" must be sacrosanct - in terms of provision for through services and compensation / alternative arrangements for connections (the "last train" if you are travelling from Newquay to Tain may well also be the first of the day). It might be reasonable to remove delay repay validity at 22.00 the night before, but not the "get you there / home" except under extreme circumstances (which can never be pre-planned or due to anything within the railway's control, including staff shortage, lack of stock and railway infrastructure failure. )

 

[Flange Squeal]

Have you a link for that information as I can't find it on National Rail website or Northern Rail? That's good news if true but I had also phoned National Rail Enquiries and when I told them of the issue they told me to contact Northern rail, no mention of Engineering works

Sadly Northern don't have a very informative engineering work page instead just telling you to see National Rail, but the details for this can be found on the National Rail website. This isn't particularly intuitive though, unlike other operators who have clear pages on their own websites detailing each week's works. You instead essentially have to go looking for it...

Go on https://www.nationalrail.co.uk and click 'Travel Updates', then 'Future Engineering Works', then select a date and operator and click submit. The page then lists that operator's works for that date. In the list is the heading "Amended 23:29 Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop service from Monday 8 to Thursday 11 May" and clicking that gives the information quoted in @Robski_ 's post above.

This link may also work: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/currentAndFuture.aspx?TravelDate=10/05/2023&TOC=nt

 

[Robski]

Is the (late evening) rail replacement bus showing in online timetables yet?

Not yet.

Have you a link for that information as I can't find it on National Rail website or Northern Rail? That's good news if true but I had also phoned National Rail Enquiries and when I told them of the issue they told me to contact Northern rail, no mention of Engineering works

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/318022.aspx - I didn't include it in the original post as there was no direct link to it on the NRE (National Rail Enquiries) website, nor on the Northern website.

 

[kuepper]

Sadly Northern don't have a very informative engineering work page instead just telling you to see National Rail, but the details for this can be found on the National Rail website. This isn't particularly intuitive though, unlike other operators who have clear pages on their own websites detailing each week's works. You instead essentially have to go looking for it...

Go on https://www.nationalrail.co.uk and click 'Travel Updates', then 'Future Engineering Works', then select a date and operator and click submit. The page then lists that operator's works for that date. In the list is the heading "Amended 23:29 Manchester Piccadilly to Glossop service from Monday 8 to Thursday 11 May" and clicking that gives the information quoted in @Robski_ 's post above.

This link may also work: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/currentAndFuture.aspx?TravelDate=10/05/2023&TOC=nt

That looked good and i've taken a screenshot but i've been back onto Northern Rail and their customer service are adamant they have not been able to secure a bus replacement service for the 23:29 train on 10th May but they said keep checking as things might change......so is there no obligation to provide a bus replacement service?

 

[P Binnersley]

National Rail show the replacement bus service for the 8th & 9th May, but not the 10th.

 

[kuepper]

National Rail show the replacement bus service for the 8th & 9th May, but not the 10th.

it's rubbish isn't it when you can't even provide a bus replacement service

 

[30907]

it's rubbish isn't it when you can't even provide a bus replacement service

Unfortunately replacement buses are proving extremely difficult to source at some times and in some areas - though I can't understand why this one is!

 

[kuepper]

Unfortunately replacement buses are proving extremely difficult to source at some times and in some areas - though I can't understand why this one is!

You'd think any organisation/s with any nous would be able to coordinate engineering works being carried out only when replacement buses were available.

 

[sportzbar]

You'd think any organisation/s with any nous would be able to coordinate engineering works being carried out only when replacement buses were available.

Engineering works are planned 18+months in advance in most cases. How would Network Rail know if a bus company can or can't provide a bus/coach in 546 days time?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Unfortunately replacement buses are proving extremely difficult to source at some times and in some areas - though I can't understand why this one is!

I wouldn't imagine that a single, relatively short trip, at that time of night, fits in particularly well with sourcing a driver for the work. It's too short to form a full duty. It's quite late to bolt onto the end of an existing duty. The late finish would mean that the driver can't be used for existing school contracts etc the following morning.

Unfortunately, driver shortages are currently plaguing the bus and coach industry. Cancellation of scheduled journeys due to no driver is rife. As alluded to elsewhere on the forum, a Manchester area operator has recently thrown in the towel and TfGM have struggled to find operators able to take on the schools and service work previously held by this operator, which suggests that resources are currently rather thin.

Over the past few months I've seen several posts, both on this forum and on social media, where people are shocked/surprised/appalled/disgusted at the lack of replacement buses. In the current climate, I'd imagine many bus/coach operators will be more focused on trying to maintain operations on their core work than taking on additional odd bits of work at either short notice or inconvenient days/times. Couple that with increased operating costs and payments for rail replacement work that aren't as lucrative as in the past, and I can't see the situation improving any time soon.

 

[Snow1964]

Engineering works are planned 18+months in advance in most cases. How would Network Rail know if a bus company can or can't provide a bus/coach in 546 days time?

Do they even ask to get an indication of availability or do they wait until few weeks before to ask the bus companies.

At the moment seems they just make an unrealistic assumption that bus companies have spare staff and vehicles and will be willing to help out, even if they haven't been able to fully cover most recent works in area.

 

[janb]

Sadly Northern don't have a very informative engineering work page instead just telling you to see National Rail, but the details for this can be found on the National Rail website.

The best way generally re engineering work on Northern website is to go to https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/timetables and then go to in this instance timetable 24, and scroll down you will get a pdf of the "engineering timetable". However it would appear that said pdf is advertising a bus that isn't currently scheduled to run so would be misleading in this example.

 

[Horizon22]

The best way generally re engineering work on Northern website is to go to https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/timetables and then go to in this instance timetable 24, and scroll down you will get a pdf of the "engineering timetable". However it would appear that said pdf is advertising a bus that isn't currently scheduled to run so would be misleading in this example.

Either that or if simply hasn’t been added to the journey planner yet, possibly because of the aforementioned bus issues, although one late night bus is much easier to source than a weekend shuttle.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are we (potentially) now looking at taxi / minibus replacement(s) for the non-existent rail replacement bus?

 

[Haywain]

You'd think any organisation/s with any nous would be able to coordinate engineering works being carried out only when replacement buses were available.

Sadly, a national shortage of bus drivers means that many bus companies can't tell you which services they'll be running either.

 

[The Planner]

Engineering works are planned 18+months in advance in most cases. How would Network Rail know if a bus company can or can't provide a bus/coach in 546 days time?

To be brutal, its not actually NRs problem. The bus replacement is a TOC issue and they are compensated to provide it. People are suggesting that NR will be reducing maintenance anyway due to cost reductions, if NR are refused opportunities as TOCs cannot provide RRBs then the network is going to end up in a bit of a state.

 

[Fleetmaster]

It's amazing how even when you *know* (as I do) that the railway is in total flux and timetables are best seen as advisory and so you really should plan for the worst (and expect no assistance from the railway), the presence of large, long, finely detailed detailed very complex printed timetables valid for months on end, available for download with no disclaimers or any other indication normal service is anything but the situation, they still kind of fool you into thinking the timetable is, barring flood or earthquake, an accurate predictor of train movements this time next month.

 

[kuepper]

Engineering works are planned 18+months in advance in most cases. How would Network Rail know if a bus company can or can't provide a bus/coach in 546 days time?

Sorry what I meant was that if NR knew about engineering works 18 months in advance, they had ample opportunity to book bus replacements for the services they were going to include in the timetable and to exclude them if they couldn't. To falsely claim there is a bus replacement service as per their website (and repeated on National rail )when there isn't is incompetent. As no-one but ppl like me would know about this will they still claim and get subsidy for providing a service that they don't actually provide?

 

[The Planner]

Sorry what I meant was that if NR knew about engineering works 18 months in advance, they had ample opportunity to book bus replacements for the services they were going to include in the timetable and to exclude them if they couldn't. To falsely claim there is a bus replacement service as per their website (and repeated on National rail )when there isn't is incompetent. As no-one but ppl like me would know about this will they still claim and get subsidy for providing a service that they don't actually provide?

I assume NR in this case is Northern Rail? As I said, RRBs are nothing to do with Network Rail.

 

[Watershed]

Sorry what I meant was that if NR knew about engineering works 18 months in advance, they had ample opportunity to book bus replacements for the services they were going to include in the timetable and to exclude them if they couldn't. To falsely claim there is a bus replacement service as per their website (and repeated on National rail )when there isn't is incompetent. As no-one but ppl like me would know about this will they still claim and get subsidy for providing a service that they don't actually provide?

If by NR you mean Northern Rail rather than Network Rail, they are run by the Operator of Last Resort (OLR), which is effectively an arm of the government. But the financial arrangements for them and the other non-OLR operators are broadly similar: they are reimbursed all their costs and pass over all revenues to the government. So it's financially irrelevant to them whether or not engineering works happen; they won't make any more of a profit by not providing replacement buses (not that they exist to make a profit in their own right anyway).

I agree that the railway is far too production-led and that engineering works should be planned with more involvement from operators. But fundamentally, the government limits the budget that operators such as Northern have to pay for rail replacement transport, and as the old adage goes - "pay peanuts, get monkeys". More reliable provision of rail replacement buses could only be guaranteed if that budget were increased to make it sufficiently lucrative for bus operators to get staff to work overtime. It's really no different to Rest Day Working deals within the rail industry - if it's not attractive enough, you won't get enough volunteers and there will be lots of cancellations.

 

[The Planner]

I agree that the railway is far too production-led and that engineering works should be planned with more involvement from operators.

You'll be hard pushed to get anymore involvement, TOCs and FOCs are involved massively in the EAS, and effectively have a veto on anything proposed.

 

[kuepper]

Unbelievable but the 2329 is now showing in journey planners as a bus replacement service - but how would I know that after being told otherwise, I could easily have booked a taxi or a hotel based on the info I was given by Northern Rail. But I suppose there's still time for things to change again....