What is known about advance tickets?

[All Line Rover]

Ah, it's been a few months, so it had to crop up again.

No-one who proposes such a system ever answers my questions. I invite you to be the first!

1) Please give me the proposed fares from York to Whitby for a day return, avoiding Darlington, and tell me how this fare is calculated and whether you think it will be competetive with the coach service provided by Coastliner that costs only slightly more than the current rail ticket price but offers a shorter journey time?

Rail #686 p.20 said that the average price on regional routes is 17ppm. However, as you say, the Middlesbrough to Whitby route in particular suffers from competition with the coach - shown by the fact fares on this route are very low.

In order to maintain decent revenue on the York to Middlesbrough route, I propose that the ppm on this route be higher than on the Middlesbrough to Whitby route (in order to encourage users to travel to Whitby). I will only stick with "Off-Peak" prices, seeing as the only "Not Darlington" York to Whitby ticket is an Off-Peak Day return.

Prices will be 12ppm for York to Middlesbrough, 10ppm for Middlesbrough to Whitby, and 9ppm for a York to Whitby through journey (because the ppm decreases as journey length increases, to encourage people to make longer journeys).

RailMiles calculates York to Middlesbrough as 100 miles return, and Middlesbrough to Whitby as 70 miles return.

So, using my proposed fares above, the price for York to Middlesbrough would be £12 for an Off-Peak Day return, which compares favourably with the current price of £11.80.

The price for Middlesbrough to Whitby would be £7 for an Anytime return, which is reasonable compared to the current price of £9.20 return.

And the price for a through journey from York to Whitby would be £15.30 return, which also compared favourably with the current price of £12.80 return.

Maybe it just has to be accepted that the coach is more appealing on this particular route. The train cannot be the best option on every route, but at least on this route the train remains an attractive option because the fare is reasonable.

2) Please give me the proposed fares from York to London for a day return, and if this is lower than current prices, tell me where the revenue will be brought in to compensate EC for the revenue loss?

I'm assuming you want all fares excluding Advance fares?

Rail #686 p.20 said that the average price on long distances routes is 22ppm. This includes Advance fares (which is likely to lower the average significantly) but also includes Anytime fares (which is likely to raise the average slightly).

On balance, I think the following prices would be reasonable for a York to London journey: 25ppm for Super-Off-Peak tickets, 40ppm for Off-Peak tickets, and 70ppm for Anytime tickets.

RailMiles calculates the distance as 376 miles return.

So, using my proposed fares above, the prices would be:

• £94 for a Super-Off-Peak return
• £150.40 for an Off-Peak return
• £263.20 for an Anytime return

Remarkably, these are very similar to the current figures of £100.10 for a Super-Off-Peak return, £171 for an Off-Peak return, and £255 for an Anytime return.

Discounts on the ppm could be offered for TOC only tickets (e.g. Grand Central) as well as for Advance tickets.

Out of interest, since this is related, here are the proposed ppm figures for Peterborough to London (which are higher, as remember, the ppm increases as journey length decreases, and vice versa): 30ppm for Super-Off-Peak tickets, 50ppm for Off-Peak tickets and 85ppm for Anytime tickets.

RailMiles calculates the distance as 152 miles return.

So, using my proposed fares above, the prices would be:

• £45.60 for a Super-Off-Peak return
• £75 for an Off-Peak return
• £129.20 for an Anytime return.

Again, these are remarkably similar to the current figures of £47.10 for a Super-Off-Peak return, £76 for an Off-Peak return and £105 for an Anytime return.

And once again, discounts on the ppm could be offered for TOC only tickets (e.g. First Capital Connect) as well as for Advance tickets.

3) Please give me the proposed fares from Peterborough to Leicester, and also Leicester to Nottingham, and let me know how you are calculating the mileage and whether under your system it will be permitted to travel from Peterborough to Nottingham via Leicester or not, and if someone does go via Leicester what excess will be charged (if any)?

In the highly unlikely event that these questions can be answered in a way that would be satisfactory to the DfT, ATOC, the TOCs, and passengers, then I will be quite shocked.

A Peterborough to Nottingham ticket is valid via Grantham or Leicester. So obviously, a Peterborough to Nottingham ticket should not cost more than any of the following tickets: Peterborough to Leicester, Leicester to Nottingham, Peterborough to Grantham and Grantham to Nottingham.

For simplicity, I will focus on Anytime fares, and will treat SDR's and SOR's as the same ticket. If I examined Off-Peak tickets, Off-Peak Day tickets, Super-Off-Peak tickets, etc., etc... I would be here forever, although the pricing structure would be similar.

Before I can determine the price of a Peterborough to Nottingham ticket, I must determine the prices for the other 4 journeys mentioned.

RailMiles calculates Peterborough to Leicester as 104 miles return. Being a regional/intercity route, I will charge 32ppm for an Anytime ticket. This works out at £33.30 for an Anytime return, which compares favourably with the current price of £35.50 return.

RailMiles calculates Leicester to Nottingham as 54 miles return. Again, being a regional/intercity route, I will charge 32ppm for an Anytime ticket. This works out at £17.30 for an Anytime return, which is higher than the current price of £11.10 for an SDR, but lower than the current price of £22 for an SOR.

RailMiles calculates Peterborough to Grantham as 58 miles return. Again, being a regional/intercity route, I will charge 32ppm for an Anytime ticket. This works out at £18.60 for an Anytime return, which is almost identical to the current price of £18.40 return.

RailMailes calculates Grantham to Nottingham as 44 miles return. Being a regional route, I will charge 28ppm for an Anytime ticket. This works out at £12.30 for an Anytime return, which is significantly higher than the current price of £8.70 return, but the current price seems far too cheap!

So, now we come to calculating the Peterborough to Nottingham ticket. RailMiles calculates going via Grantham as 102 miles return, and going via Leicester as 158 miles return. According to National Rail Enquiries, it is almost always quicker to travel via Grantham (on which direct trains are available), and even when it is quicker to travel via Leicester (which involves a change of train) a direct train via Grantham is usually just 10 minutes later. I do not think there is a big enough case to allow travel via Leicester on the "Any Permitted" ticket (the current Peterborough to Nottingham ticket being valid via Leicester is a loophole of the current system, since it is cheaper than a Peterborough to Leicester ticket), so the "Any Permitted" ticket will no longer will valid via Leicester.

Peterborough to Nottingham (via Grantham) is a regional/intercity route, but as it involves travelling between Grantham and Nottingham which is a solely regional route, I will charge an average price of 30ppm. Based on 102 miles, this works out at £30.60 return for a "Route Grantham" ticket. Once again, this compares favorably with the current price of £31 return!

The price of the "Any Permitted" ticket will be based on the longest reasonable route (via Leicester - 158 miles). Being a fairly long distance, the price will be a lower 25ppm. This works out at £39.50 return, which is a very reasonable price.

Of course, all of the above will need fine-tuning, but it would eliminate many of the "loopholes" of the current system, such as split-ticketing and over-distance tickets. I also think it would reduce confusion and offer more transparent pricing. The main thing that would make it work is the idea of "the longer the distance the lower the price-per-mile," but also the fact that a shorter distance would never cost more than a longer distance (at the time of purchase).

 

[yorkie]

So you will charge variable prices per mileage based on various factors. And you are getting rid of permitted routes. Market based pricing goes out of the window so rail gives way to coach for some journeys. Sounds simple enough and bad enough that ATOC may consider it

What price is Poppleton to Burley Park then, and what sort of journey do you classify this as? What price via York/Leeds and what price via Harrogate?

Is Doncaster to Sheffield a regional/InterCity trip or just Regional? About half the trains are pacers.

 

[All Line Rover]

So you will charge variable prices per mileage based on various factors. And you are getting rid of permitted routes. Market based pricing goes out of the window so rail gives way to coach for some journeys. Sounds simple enough and bad enough that ATOC may consider it

Isn't charging variable prices per mileage based on various factors "market based pricing?" After all, if the current fares system made the train such an attractive option between York and Whitby, the coach company wouldn't have any customers!

I never said I'd be getting rid of permitted routes, but it's clear that the system would need a complete overhaul if pence-per-mile pricing was introduced.

The current system of determining permitted routes may leave us with a lot of loopholes, but I'm not so sure that it's fit for purpose!

What price is Poppleton to Burley Park then, and what sort of journey do you classify this as? What price via York/Leeds and what price via Harrogate?

Poppleton to Burley Park via Harrogate is definitely a regional route (and a cheap one at that, since fares in this area appear to be heavily subsidised) so I would charge 20ppm for Peak tickets and 15ppm for Off-Peak tickets. At 66 miles return, that's £13.20 for an Anytime return (current price £12.70) and £9.90 for an Off-Peak return (current price £10.40).

Travelling via York and Leeds is definitely a regional/intercity route, so I would charge 32ppm for Peak tickets and 20ppm for Off-Peak tickets. At 60 miles return, that's £19.20 for an Anytime return (current price £14.80) and £12 for an Off-Peak return (current price £12.10).

So once again, market factors come into play. But this "regional" or "regional/intercity" or "intercity" or "what about any subsidies" malarkey doesn't need to be communicated to customers. ATOC can spend time determining what ppm's should apply, and just need to tell customers what the ppm's are!

Is Doncaster to Sheffield a regional/InterCity trip or just Regional? About half the trains are pacers.

That's an interesting one. I would say "regional/intercity," instead of just "regional," as most people travelling between the two places would travel with XC or TPE (I assume). However, the prices indicate otherwise (probably because the tickets are heavily subsidised), so price-wise this would be a regional route (20ppm for Anytime tickets) rather than a regional/intercity route (32ppm for Anytime tickets).

It appears that charging 20ppm for regional routes in "subsidised" areas and 28ppm for regional routes in "non-subsidised" areas would actually work very well. Charging 20ppm for the above example (Doncaster to Sheffield) - which is in a subsidised area - would (at 36 miles return) cost £7.20 for an Anytime return. The current price is £6.80. Charging 28ppm for Whitchurch to Crewe, which is a regional but non-subsidised route, would (at 26 miles return) cost £7.30 for an Anytime return. The current price is £7.70! Shrewsbury to Crewe - which is 64 miles return - could, because of the longer distance and market forces, have a lower price of 22ppm. This would cost £14.10 for an Anytime return. The current price is £13!!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I, for one, would HATE to see the above system implemented, as it would remove almost all of the current loopholes for getting cheaper tickets. I would only accept it if it came with the precursor of cheap, Advance-style fares being available on all routes, to continue to allow leisure travellers to make cheap journeys during the off-peak.

However, in terms of offering transparent, fair and simple pricing (from the point of view of paying customers) - whilst maintaining revenue for the TOC's - I cannot think of a better solution.

 

[island]

ALR, you have mentioned over your two most recent posts no fewer than 11 different rates, being 9, 10, 12, 25, 28, 30, 32, 40, 50, 70, and 85 pence per mile. With the height of respect, that is not a price per mile system, it is taking a box of Crayolas and rewriting the fares system using a random colour for each route and ticket type.

 

[radamfi]

Of course, distance based fares are common in mainland Europe. For example Dutch trains.

Every pair of stations has a defined distance which can be worked out using these maps

http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/a...2]/tariefeenhedenkaart-van-nederland-2012.pdf

http://www.ns.nl/binaries/content/a...behorende-bij-de-tariefeenhedenkaart-2012.pdf

so it is a simple task to look at the table and see the 1st and 2nd class fares and the related 20% and 40% discounts for concessions and railcards. Note no return fares as cheaper day returns were scrapped about a year ago. There is just a notice saying "prijs van een retour is 2 maal de enkele reis" which means a return is twice the single.

It can be seen, however, that it isn't a fixed price per km. The price per km reduces by distance, with a minimum fare of €2.10 for up to 8 km, which discourages short trips (possibly to encourage cycle and bus use instead), and a maximum fare of €24 for any distance over 249 km. There are no domestic Advance fares other than on Thalys.

Regarding routings, if you play with the journey planner, you can insert any 'via-station' and you get a different fare depending on the route. However, some routes are offered by different routes by default without inserting a 'via-station' and in these cases the fare seems to be the same whichever way you go.

 

[All Line Rover]

ALR, you have mentioned over your two most recent posts no fewer than 11 different rates, being 9, 10, 12, 25, 28, 30, 32, 40, 50, 70, and 85 pence per mile. With the height of respect, that is not a price per mile system, it is taking a box of Crayolas and rewriting the fares system using a random colour for each route and ticket type.

A price-per-mile system does not necessarily have to have a set price-per-mile per ticket type for the whole of the UK. If you were to scrap subsidies, force people to take the shortest route possible, and have no way of encouraging people to use branch lines or quieter routes, then yes, it would be possible. But a price-per-mile system (even with difference prices on different routes), would, if implemented properly, eliminate split-ticketing, over-distance tickets, and similar loopholes.

A price-per-mile system where the ppm decreases as the journey length increases will, logically, have any number of different ppm's ranging from the lowest in the country to the highest in the country. That cannot be avoided. And I think this is the only feasible way of introducing a price-per-mile system.

I don't think the ticketless technology that ATOC and the DfT are planning will be any simpler. I fear it will be much more complicated, and have absolutely no logic to it whatsoever!

 

[Deerfold]

ALR, you have mentioned over your two most recent posts no fewer than 11 different rates, being 9, 10, 12, 25, 28, 30, 32, 40, 50, 70, and 85 pence per mile. With the height of respect, that is not a price per mile system, it is taking a box of Crayolas and rewriting the fares system using a random colour for each route and ticket type.

I was thinking that - as well as seeming to withdraw current valid routes on an Any Permitted ticket (we've seen this twice in just a handful of examples so could be widespread).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But a price-per-mile system (even with difference prices on different routes), would, if implemented properly, eliminate split-ticketing, over-distance tickets, and similar loopholes.

I suspect that will only be true if you severely restrict the routes permitted between any two points as this is quite often why split ticketing works (probably excluding XC's pricing).

 

[All Line Rover]

I was thinking that - as well as seeming to withdraw current valid routes on an Any Permitted ticket (we've seen this twice in just a handful of examples so could be widespread).

But how do you implement a price-per-mile system on tickets that have a number of different possible routes? You could charge prices based on the shortest route, but ATOC/TOC's/DfT wouldn't be happy, and it would create loopholes. You could charge prices based on the average distance of all the different routes, but customers travelling on the shortest route (which is, in most cases, the best route) would not be happy. You could charge priced based on the longest route, but customers and Passenger Focus would be furious, and I doubt such a system would work in many cases!

From our point of view, yes, it would be horrendous! But the TOC's would like it, and from the average customer's point of view, the fares system would actually make sense (for once).

 

[Deerfold]

But how do you implement a price-per-mile system on tickets that have a number of different possible routes?


From our point of view, yes, it would be horrendous!

That was rather my point and why I don't think a ppm system is viable on a network as complicated as ours.

I think it would affect more passengers than you expect - for example a customer wanting to travel from Leeds to Bradford would have to decide which station in Bradford they wanted to go to and come back from in advance as they'd be different fares.

 

[radamfi]

In Germany, most local journeys are not priced by DB as almost everywhere is part of a Verkehrsverbund (PTE area) and PTE ticketing overrides regular DB ticketing for journeys within that area. For example, you can't get a regular DB ticket between Cologne and Bonn other than for using high speed trains. Instead you get a ticket between the relevant zones under the PTE fare system, which gives you a time limited journey between anywhere in Cologne to anywhere in Bonn, including tram and bus connections. In fact, you can make the whole trip by bus or by train and you will pay the same. So if we had a similar system in the UK then you would get a PTE ticket between the 'Leeds zone' and 'Bradford zone' including buses to the station, or indeed making the whole trip by bus if you so wished. It wouldn't matter whether you go to Interchange or Forster Square as they would be in the same Bradford zone.

 

[142094]

Posted in error.

 

[Deerfold]

In Germany, most local journeys are not priced by DB as almost everywhere is part of a Verkehrsverbund (PTE area) and PTE ticketing overrides regular DB ticketing for journeys within that area. For example, you can't get a regular DB ticket between Cologne and Bonn other than for using high speed trains. Instead you get a ticket between the relevant zones under the PTE fare system, which gives you a time limited journey between anywhere in Cologne to anywhere in Bonn, including tram and bus connections. In fact, you can make the whole trip by bus or by train and you will pay the same. So if we had a similar system in the UK then you would get a PTE ticket between the 'Leeds zone' and 'Bradford zone' including buses to the station, or indeed making the whole trip by bus if you so wished. It wouldn't matter whether you go to Interchange or Forster Square as they would be in the same Bradford zone.

Ah, now a Zonal system might work. But would still be mighty complicated - I noticed Denmark uses a system like this - but there's almost 100 zones for a rather smaller Country. In smaller towns there is just one zone and thus a fixed fare for local journeys. For longer journeys you cancel or buy enough zones for your journey - this still means that journeys via different routes might be different prices though (not as big a problem in Denmark as most of the heavy rail routes are radial out of Copenhagen).

 

[radamfi]

I don't really have a problem with paying more by going a different route. After all, if you are driving then you use a different amount of petrol depending on the route taken, amongst other factors. It is only a problem when you are talking about return tickets, meaning you have to come back the same way, unless you mess about with route excessing or having to choose a ticket which has permitted routes allowing both routes like you have to do in the UK. That is one reason I much prefer everything to be priced as singles.

I think it is noteworthy that the Dutch fare system for local transport has abandoned zones apart from for season tickets and replaced it with a precise per km system using the OV-chipkaart smartcard. The distance between adjacent bus stops in the whole country has been measured. So if you go through different bus stops then you pay a different fare.

 

[All Line Rover]

I don't really have a problem with paying more by going a different route. After all, if you are driving then you use a different amount of petrol depending on the route taken, amongst other factors. It is only a problem when you are talking about return tickets, meaning you have to come back the same way, unless you mess about with route excessing or having to choose a ticket which has permitted routes allowing both routes like you have to do in the UK. That is one reason I much prefer everything to be priced as singles.

If a price-per-mile system was introduced, tickets would definitely have to be priced as singles. There's no other way around it. We already have single tickets anyway - they're called Advance tickets!

I think it is noteworthy that the Dutch fare system for local transport has abandoned zones apart from for season tickets and replaced it with a precise per km system using the OV-chipkaart smartcard. The distance between each bus stop in the whole country has been measured. So if you go through different bus stops then you pay a different fare.

I am not convinced that a zonal system will work, and I am definitely not convinced that it would be better than our current system. I am also not convinced that a price-per-mile system will work, but I am convinced that it would be better than our current system (at least a little bit better ).

 

[bb21]

If a variable ppm rate is introduced for different types of routes then it still will not stop many of the practice we have today.

If the segments of a journey is priced at a lower ppm than the complete journey as a whole, then splitting will definitely be cheaper. Then to eradicate this differential by using a lower ppm as distance increases, you are introducing additional complexity into the calculation to ensure that all loopholes are looked after.

The system will not be simpler under a pence-per-mile system simply because we have a spider-web style network, and not a hub and spokes one, unless intercity journeys are operated under a strict Reservation Only policy.

 

[radamfi]

If the segments of a journey is priced at a lower ppm than the complete journey as a whole, then splitting will definitely be cheaper.

That is what we have at the moment, meaning that splitting can be cheaper. Splitting is sometimes cheaper because a particular route segment can have a lower ppm compared to when the same route segment is part of a longer journey. If that route segment is always priced the same whether or not it is part of a longer journey than splitting won't save money. If you look at the Dutch fare chart I posted earlier, you can see that splitting can't be worth it as the price per km decreases by distance.

However splitting can be cheaper, even in the Netherlands, because if you travel in peak for part of the trip and off-peak for another part then you can get 20% or 40% off the off-peak part of the trip if you buy two tickets and have the right railcard.

 

[bb21]

That is what we have at the moment, meaning that splitting can be cheaper. Splitting is sometimes cheaper because a particular route segment can have a lower ppm compared to when the same route segment is part of a longer journey. If that route segment is always priced the same whether or not it is part of a longer journey than splitting won't save money. If you look at the Dutch fare chart I posted earlier, you can see that splitting can't be worth it as the price per km decreases by distance.

However splitting can be cheaper, even in the Netherlands, because if you travel in peak for part of the trip and off-peak for another part then you can get 20% or 40% off the off-peak part of the trip if you buy two tickets and have the right railcard.

This in turn means that the proposed system above does not really offer any fundamental improvements to the existing system, however complicated it might be.

 

[blacknight]

Why the hell should you NOT be allowed to travel short on an advance other than to catch people out who aren't as all-knowing as the site members here, and thus line the TOC's pockets?.

If you read the T&C for Advance Purchase tickets that is one of the conditions of the contract you have willingly entered into with TOC & a condition that you have agreed to abide by when ticking little box on line.

 

[island]

Why the hell should you NOT be allowed to travel short on an advance other than to catch people out who aren't as all-knowing as the site members here, and thus line the TOC's pockets?

It's called price discrimination. The TOCs offer a lower price to people to make a longer journey in certain instances. If travelling short was permitted, then the lower fare would be arbitraged out of existence, causing customer detriment.

 

[neilmc]

It's called price discrimination. The TOCs offer a lower price to people to make a longer journey in certain instances. If travelling short was permitted, then the lower fare would be arbitraged out of existence, causing customer detriment.

Well yes, I can see that (though the general travelling public probably wouldn't, and I don't blame them). Maybe the mania for split ticketing which this website encourages will also eventually cause medium-distance commuter fares to be arbitraged out of existence, or ramped in price so they can't be cost-effective in multiple, causing customer detriment.

Local bus companies may have their faults but I've never yet heard of anyone buy a ticket in to town, change their mind and get off to do some shopping half way and the driver charge them £155 before he'll open the doors.

And if I discover that Tesco have a special offer on small tins of beans such that two small tins cost less than one large one they don't go all grumpy on me when they see two small tins in my basket.

 

[Terrafire]

Not sure I understand why a ticket needs to allow multiple routes in itself. Why not sell a basic ticket for the shortest route, and require an excess (which would be routine, and therefore far less painful than current excesses) for all other routes? This would be easy enough if each segment had a set ppm. This way we would preserve our BoJ privileges, and get the added benefit of never paying for the more expensive route we decided not to take, unlike at present.

 

[bnm]

Local bus companies may have their faults but I've never yet heard of anyone buy a ticket in to town, change their mind and get off to do some shopping half way and the driver charge them £155 before he'll open the doors.

If you can show me a local bus company that offers cheaper Advance Purchase point-to-point fares then we'd have a fair comparison with the products offered by train companies.

If you don't agree with, abide by or read the contract terms you sign up to when buying Advance Purchase train tickets then that is no-ones fault but your own.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not sure I understand why a ticket needs to allow multiple routes in itself. Why not sell a basic ticket for the shortest route, and require an excess (which would be routine, and therefore far less painful than current excesses) for all other routes? This would be easy enough if each segment had a set ppm. This way we would preserve our BoJ privileges, and get the added benefit of never paying for the more expensive route we decided not to take, unlike at present.

Far less painful than the current excesses?

Customer: Hi, I need a ticket from Manchester to London.
Clerk: The cheapest ticket to London is £70.
Customer: And I can go via Sheffield can't I?
Clerk: No, under our new simpler, less painful system, that costs £20 extra.
Customer: what? I have to pay more?
Clerk: That's right, you have to pay more if you don't take the direct route now. It's all so we can get rid of the excess fares that you never really had issued to you before because you never needed them.
Customer: So what happens if I pay for the direct route and then decide I really do need to go via Sheffield after all?
Clerk: You'll need to get an excess ticket.
Customer: But I thought you said you were getting rid of those?
Clerk: It's a simpler, less painful system, but it's not perfect.

:roll:

....Local bus companies may have their faults but I've never yet heard of anyone buy a ticket in to town, change their mind and get off to do some shopping half way and the driver charge them £155 before he'll open the doors....

If you are going to do really poor analogies, could you get them right. You'd be able to get off the bus, but you'd be prevented from leaving the bus shelter or boarding another bus.

....And if I discover that Tesco have a special offer on small tins of beans such that two small tins cost less than one large one they don't go all grumpy on me when they see two small tins in my basket.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Tesco openly advertise such things? So that will be another poor analogy.