What Is InterCity?

[Cherry_Picker]

To my mind, Intercity services are a specific, defined set of services, rather than being dictated by some wooly formula. Services that count as Intercity, to my mind are:

Virgin West Coast services
East Coast services
Great Western HST services (Stuff that wasn't Wessex Trains/GW Link etc)
MML services operated with HSTs or Meridians.
CrossCountry services ran with HSTs or Voyagers.
GA London-Norwich
SWT London-Weymouth
SWT London-Exeter
GatEx

I think that's it.

And then why not Chiltern mainline runs, especially the loco hauled services? They operate between the capital to the second city and regularly have non stop runs of 70 (MYB - BAN) or 90 (MYB - LMS) miles.

 

[43074]

To my mind, Intercity services are a specific, defined set of services, rather than being dictated by some wooly formula. Services that count as Intercity, to my mind are:

Virgin West Coast services
East Coast services
Great Western HST services (Stuff that wasn't Wessex Trains/GW Link etc)
MML services operated with HSTs or Meridians.
CrossCountry services ran with HSTs or Voyagers.
GA London-Norwich
SWT London-Weymouth
SWT London-Exeter
GatEx

I think that's it.

The Great Western HST group is slightly clouded now because of intermediate stops. Some of the Weston to London HSTs serve Worle, Yatton & Nailsea. I'm sure one or two Bristol HSTs serve Maidenhead in the peaks as well. Some HSTs between Penzance/Paignton and London Paddington are actually replacing local trains by calling at Saltash, Ivybridge, Starcross and Exeter St Thomas IIRC (there are HST 2+7/8 stop boards at many FGW Thames and Wessex stations as well). Are these services still InterCity despite calling at these local stations?

And why is XC Nottingham to Cardiff (serves Derby, Birmingham, Cheltenham and Gloucester) or Birmingham to Stansted (serves Leicester, Peterborough, Ely and Cambridge) not InterCity?

 

[glbotu]

And why is XC Nottingham to Cardiff (serves Derby, Birmingham, Cheltenham and Gloucester) or Birmingham to Stansted (serves Leicester, Peterborough, Ely and Cambridge) not InterCity?

Possibly because the latter serves Manea..........

 

[AndyLandy]

No. I've changed my mind.

(Facetious) observation #1: It's only an Intercity service if you can buy food & drink on it.

On a slightly more serious note, it would appear there are a great deal more grey area services than I'd first realised. It's clear that Virgin Pendolino and East Coast IC125/IC225 services are Intercity in pretty much every sense of the word, and a Pacer Railbus somewhere in rural Cheshire is absolutely not, but the stuff in the middle. (Which I guess is why tbtc asked the question in the first place...)

So, I present the rough and ready guide to Things That Indicate the Possibility of Intercity:

• Food available on-board (double points for a buffet/shop service)
• End doors with vestibules
• >100mph running speed
• Standard class seating in 2+2 layout (You can have half a point for a Southern 377 or similar)
• First class provision (double points if it's 1+2 seating)

Using that scoring system, it's possible to get up to 7 points. Clearly a 7 is definitely Intercity, and a 0 is definitely not. Score your services and decide which ones count as Intercity, and we'll work out a scoring threshhold!

 

[43074]

Possibly because the latter serves Manea..........

There are HSTs which stop at the likes of Ivybridge, Saltash and St Germans on their way from Paddington to Plymouth and Penzance. Are these HSTs not InterCity either?

 

[glbotu]

Sure, those aren't cities, but I don't think you've quite understood just how small Manea really is...............

But that was mostly a tongue in cheek comment (the stop is just 2 tpd each way, it doesn't really justify not being Intercity). What does, however, is the fact that it regularly stops at small towns. Your Intercity via Saltash, St Germans etc. only stops at those places after having traveled fast from Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter - Plymouth (or whatever service pattern happened to exist at the time). It then runs as a slow train due to various factors such as line capacity etc, but still runs as an Intercity service for most of its route (distance wise).

The same happens with TGV trains in France, if you want to travel to Nice (SE France), your train will probably have gone:

Paris Gare de Lyon, Lyon, Valence TGV, Aix TGV, Marseilles SC, before travelling pretty slowly along Toulon, Les Arcs - Draguignan, St Raphael Valescure, Cannes, Antibes, Nice (along one of the slowest mainlines in France) - it takes almost as long to travel from Marseilles to Nice as it does from Paris to Marseilles (which is about 4 x the distance). You'd still call that a TGV and not just because it takes TGV stock, but because it runs as a TGV for most of its line by distance.

I'd say a good list of things which make an Intercity service intercity include but are not limited to:

Speed of Service
Stock Used (and modcons included with that stock)
Stopping Pattern
Destinations Served

If you ran an equivalent Paddington - Penzance service that called all stations Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Plymouth - Pencance, then that wouldn't be an intercity, even if it very inappropriately used HST stock.

 

[tbtc]

No. I've changed my mind.

(Facetious) observation #1: It's only an Intercity service if you can buy food & drink on it.

On a slightly more serious note, it would appear there are a great deal more grey area services than I'd first realised. It's clear that Virgin Pendolino and East Coast IC125/IC225 services are Intercity in pretty much every sense of the word, and a Pacer Railbus somewhere in rural Cheshire is absolutely not, but the stuff in the middle. (Which I guess is why tbtc asked the question in the first place...)

So, I present the rough and ready guide to Things That Indicate the Possibility of Intercity:

• Food available on-board (double points for a buffet/shop service)
• End doors with vestibules
• >100mph running speed
• Standard class seating in 2+2 layout (You can have half a point for a Southern 377 or similar)
• First class provision (double points if it's 1+2 seating)

Using that scoring system, it's possible to get up to 7 points. Clearly a 7 is definitely Intercity, and a 0 is definitely not. Score your services and decide which ones count as Intercity, and we'll work out a scoring threshhold!

Aha - I like this!

I think (to offer up another couple of parameters) I'd rule out any service with 3+2 seating (though this would muck up a route like Birmingham - Liverpool which clearly runs between two large cities but has 350/1s and 350/2s) and to rule out anything with a top speed of 75mph.

Still nobody picking me up over whether Heathrow Express counts though!

 

[work-traveller]

I'm going to wade in with my ill-informed opinion. Picking up on some criteria made by some other folks, I'd say an InterCity service should:

a) Have seat in 2+2 or 2+1 configuration only. No 3+2.
b) Have onboard catering in a dedicated area, i.e. shop, bar, or restaurant. Trolley service only does not count.
c) All external doors at ends of carriages, in a separate vestibule.
d) At least one carriage dedicated to 1st class.

Based on the above along with services I've travelled on (& therefore can speak about), that qualifies the following as InterCity:

Virgin WCML
Virgin Cross Country
First Great Western (HSTs from Paddington)
East Coast
Eurostar
Highland sleeper, the Cornish sleeper is less sure as I don't recall that it meets point 'd'.

It's a short list, with the rest possibly qualifying as national/regional express services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Still nobody picking me up over whether Heathrow Express counts though!

No.

Happy?

But in all seriousness I don't see how any of the airport services, that just serve airports, can be counted as intercity.

 

[tbtc]

No.

Happy?

I asked for that, didn't I!

But in all seriousness I don't see how any of the airport services, that just serve airports, can be counted as intercity.

I was thinking that, if we discount the "all stops have to be in cities" argument (since HSTs to/from London stop at little places like Par and Leuchars) then HEX would meet a lot of the other criteria mentioned on here:

• 100mph stock
• 2+1 seating in First Class
• The fastest service between two points (compared to Heathrow Connect)

However there's no restaurant on Heathrow Express for some reason...
mainly a tongue in cheek comment that if some services qualify then why not this non-stop upmarket service between Paddington and Heathrow?

</ devilsadvocate>

 

[starrymarkb]

Highland sleeper, the Cornish sleeper is less sure as I don't recall that it meets point 'd'.

I believe the Night Riviera is standard class only with supplement for a berth. Seating is "First Class" 2+1 throughout though.

 

[southern442]

As a fare paying passenger the term Intercity suggests to me a train service between cities.

Wouldn't that make the Midland metro intercity?

For me Intercity would be a long-ish distance journey between two cities or major towns that stops at a few key stations along the way.
It needs to have rolling stock that is built for long distance journeys and that is equipped with armrests and tables. Power points and wifi would be nice, as well as a buffet, but it should have some form of catering on board.

 

[AndyLandy]

I think (to offer up another couple of parameters) I'd rule out any service with 3+2 seating (though this would muck up a route like Birmingham - Liverpool which clearly runs between two large cities but has 350/1s and 350/2s) and to rule out anything with a top speed of 75mph.

I'd forgotten about this thread!

I don't think we even need specific exclusions for 75mph running or 3+2 seating. I'd expect it all to come out in the wash. We simply score a service based on the criteria, and the higher the score, the more likely it is to be Intercity. We could then work out where we draw the line, and possibly make some judgements about other services, too.

 

[atillathehunn]

Over here trains are designated on the basis of their stopping pattern. With the limits (high speed line excluded) set so low, most trains could achieve this speed. Certainly the newer trains can. But the difference is stopping patterns. Stopping patterns of trains are usually fixed. IC do the main stops, Sprinter picks up the rest. There's usually a sprinter around each IC to mop up the passengers from the intermediate stops. They also have priority, and connections will be held.

Distances are also not that large here! Even if the trains do go end to end of the country (from here the trains go to Alkmaar). But the service can effectively be seen as a Maastricht Amsterdam train that goes on to form a new train at Amsterdam to Alkmaar (judging by the passenger exodus at Amsterdam Centraal).

If the stops of the IC are close together, so be it.

 

[Drsatan]

Indeed, there are quite a few services that due to their distance and availability of on board food would be classed as intercity, but due to their frequent stops and low average speed would be classed as "interregio" "RegioExpress" or a similar term in Europe

One service I can think of which would be classed as "Interregio" is the Liverpool to Norwich service. The length of the route it takes is 247 miles, yet due to the number of stops, the low average speed (to the best of my knowledge all 158s have a maximum speed of 90mph) and lack of first class the service, IMO, isn't Intercity, even though it serves several large conurbations.

On the other hand, I doubt anyone would class Lancaster to Carlisle via Barrow in Furness as "Intercity" despite the length of the journey - any TOC which says otherwise ought to be prosecuted under the Trade Descriptions Act

 

[185]

I have just booked two tickets online with Intercity.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Kiwi_double_deck_body_at_Rotorua_in_2013.JPG

 

[tbtc]

I'd forgotten about this thread!

I don't think we even need specific exclusions for 75mph running or 3+2 seating. I'd expect it all to come out in the wash. We simply score a service based on the criteria, and the higher the score, the more likely it is to be Intercity. We could then work out where we draw the line, and possibly make some judgements about other services, too.

Okay, as an example, where would you draw the line here

• London - Birmingham (Virgin)
• London - Norwich
• London - Weymouth
• London - Portsmouth
• Liverpool - Birmingham
• Cardiff - Nottingham
• London - Gatwick ("Gatwick Express")
• Liverpool - Scarborough
• Cardiff - Holyhead ("WAG Express"/ "Gerald" service)
• Cardiff - Holyhead (normal 175s)
• Leeds - Nottingham
• Leeds - Bradford (Interchange)
• Glasgow - Mallaig

The top one is Intercity (by my definitions) as things stand and should be Intercity.

There are some services that don't currently meet my definitions of Intercity but could qualify longer term (e.g. the Northern service from Leeds to Nottingham has no First Class/ Buffet/ 100mph running but does serve a few cities).

Some enthusiasts seem to treat London - Norwich above London - Weymouth because the first is loco hauled, but should that matter?

 

[Muzer]

I'm not familiar with many of these routes and how important various stations on them are, but IMHO, anything that stops almost exclusively at city centres, large towns, major interchanges and parkway or otherwise important stations in this list is intercity. Trains that stop at many small towns and villages, or at many suburban stations, aren't. Trains can also be intercity for only part of the route. WAT to WEY, for example, I would say is intercity until Poole. WoEML fasts are intercity until Salisbury, etc. This is just my opinion, of course, but I think it's reasonable. It pretty much corresponds with the more comfortable, faster (not necessarily 125mph) rolling stock with ample toilets and at least some form of catering.

 

[AndyLandy]

OK, I've revised the scoring system a little:

Speed:
0 for <100mph
1 for 100-110mph
2 for 125mph+
Accommodation:
0 for Standard accommodation only
1 for First Class accommodation as well
2 if it's 2+1 seating
Catering:
0 for no catering
1 for a trolley service
2 for a shop/buffet
Length:
0 for 1-3 carriages
1 for 4-6 carriages
2 for 7+ carriages
Other:
1 for standard class seating in 2+2 configuration
1 for vestibules separating passenger saloon from exterior doors

That, rather nicely gives you a score out of ten.

• London - Birmingham (Virgin) -- 10
• London - Norwich -- 9
• London - Weymouth -- 8 (scored as a double 444)
• London - Portsmouth -- 3 (scored as a double 450. +1 more if there's catering. I don't know)
• Liverpool - Birmingham 3 (scored as a single 350/2; 5 if it's a /1)

I don't know what comprises these services, so feel free to score them using the above metrics.

• Cardiff - Nottingham
• London - Gatwick ("Gatwick Express")
• Liverpool - Scarborough
• Cardiff - Holyhead ("WAG Express"/ "Gerald" service)
• Cardiff - Holyhead (normal 175s)
• Leeds - Nottingham
• Leeds - Bradford (Interchange)
• Glasgow - Mallaig

Some enthusiasts seem to treat London - Norwich above London - Weymouth because the first is loco hauled, but should that matter?

The loco haulage doesn't matter, but the lack of a (used) buffet counter is a black mark against WAT-WEY. Scoring it as 5-car services would take another point off.

 

[starrymarkb]

So that would make a SWT 158/159 formation score between 5 or 7 depending on the number of units in the train (formations range between 2 and 10 coaches depending on demand). Interesting that in terms of amenities they are the same as an XC HST or Voyager! (2+2 in STD, 2+1 in First, Trolley catering)

 

[Manchester77]

TPE services can range from 3 (single 185) to 4 (double 185)
Their 350/4s will be 6 (single 350) to 7 (double 350)

Not 100% as my maths isn't exactly good

 

[cjp]

That's an interesting example - there was nothing particularly "InterCity" about the 73s and Mk2s (?) or about the 460s IIRC - but the route that they operated on was an "InterCity" one (arguments about the size of Gatwick and its lack of "city" status notwithstanding!).

So, is it more about the type of service than the type of stock? Would a 100mph 170 on a long distance route with few stops (i.e. London to Hull/ Norwich) be InterCity whilst a 125mph 222 on a shorter route with regular stops (i.e. London to Corby) not be InterCity?

My vote YES

 

[Metrailway]

Using AndyLandy's scoring method London to Birmingham by Chiltern would score a 4 (100mph, trolley, 4-6 carriages, standard in 2+2 config) or if you count the 'Business Zone' as First Class it would be a 6 (2+1 config).

 

[Manchester77]

It's actually quite hard to put together an actual rating system because as you indeed say a 8 car 350 would score higher than Chilterns loco hauled sets based on the trains being longer and traveling at 110 mph. No system is perfect really I do think AndyLandys works quite well though despite its limitations it provides useful information. Perhaps you could include comfort however that opens a huge can of worms as what I say is comfortables someone else won't...

 

[Muzer]

I still think stop frequency/number of stops/total distance/some calculation involving these three should factor in.

 

[tbtc]

No system is perfect really I do think AndyLandys works quite well though despite its limitations it provides useful information

I think its a great idea for a benchmark - now I need to start calculating some services to work out how "InterCity" some services are in practice.

 

[cle]

Trickier still - as mentioned the WAT-WEY services become quite local at their extremities.

But then so do Highlands, Grampian and Cornish HSTs too (which are undeniably 'intercity') - perhaps that's just to be accepted due to our geography.

 

[Metrailway]

I still think stop frequency/number of stops/total distance/some calculation involving these three should factor in.

Average speed would be a better measure than just top speed.

0 for <60mph
1 for 60-69mph
2 for 70mph+

So replacing top speed with average speed:

• London - Birmingham (Virgin) -- 10 (Avg speed:2)
• London - Birmingham (Chiltern silver set) -- 6 or 4 if Business Zone is not First Class (Avg speed:1)
• London - Birmingham (LM 2* Cl 350) -- 4 (Avg speed:0)
  
  
• London - Bristol -- 10 (Avg speed:2)
• London - Inverness -- 10 (Avg speed 2)
• London - Norwich -- 9 or 8 (Avg speed: 1 or 0)
• London - Weymouth -- 7 (Avg speed: 0)
• Cardiff - Holyhead (WAG Exp) -- 7 (Avg speed:0)
• Reading - Manchester (1* Cl 220) -- 6 (Avg speed: 0)
• London - Gatwick (Gat Exp) -- 6 (Avg speed:0)
• London - Portsmouth (2* Cl 450)-- 4 (Avg speed:0)

 

[notadriver]

How about simply defining an intercity train as one which has a top speed of no less than 125 mph ?

 

[DeeGee]

But this is simple.

An Intercity train is any service which, on departing its London terminus, does not stop again until Hertfordshire or Berkshire.

Surely the point of any Intercity service is to get people quickly between provincial cities and the capital city.

(Huge dose of , naturally)