What is causing driver shortages?

[ComUtoR]

In all fairness, some of those issues - especially pay - are particularly bad at your TOC compared to most others.

For sure. Each TOC will have their own specific issues. We did really well through COVID and were still training and all competencies were maintained. We managed the business quite well.

Our traction training is well on target and we haven't had any Driver issues with our new traction. Again, it's been managed well.

It's always going to be TOC/Depot specific and always be a multitude of issues that impact the business. Most, if not all, can be addressed and resolved. There is just no desire to change, so it will continue long after I retire.

 

[Gorlash1886]

Indeed and the level at which drivers leave to other nearby tocs will not change.

 

[357]

Indeed and the level at which drivers leave to other nearby tocs will not change.

It can change if the company want it to. Both positively and negatively.

There are some TOCs where drivers have gone elsewhere and said "money isn't everything, sometimes you just want to be treated better".

 

[Gorlash1886]

Oh of course I totally agree, I count myself as quite lucky that the DM'S at my depot are decent guys that seem to treat people fairly which goes a long way, however such a stark difference in wages is often difficult to ignore

 

[Carl98k]

Just out of curiosity, do FOCs have the same issues with shortages ect?

 

[66701GBRF]

Just out of curiosity, do FOCs have the same issues with shortages ect?

GB does...which you will soon come to see!

 

[Carl98k]

GB does...which you will soon come to see!

Oh……I assume you work for them?

 

[Bald Rick]

@ComUtoR - I don’t disagree in principle with what you say.

Establishment calculations certainly need a makeover.

My explanations were rather broad brush; by no means does it all apply at every TOC. But on average across the industry it is broadly right.

And I will say that one TOC in particular - yours - has a specific issue about driver pay, relative to other TOCs of course.

 

[anglian96]

Shortages where? I've been looking to jumpship from current FOC and can't see anyone really recruiting...

 

[Sorcerer]

Shortages where? I've been looking to jumpship from current FOC and can't see anyone really recruiting...

That's kind of the issue here. ASLEF claim that Avanti do not have enough drivers to cover their timetable but are too much a cheapskate company to recruit the necessary numbers and rely too much on overtime which is now coming back to bite them.

 

[northwichcat]

Pay them better

....

The failure rate for applicants is shockingly high. There is no shortage of applicants. Then you have the usual training issues.

A high number of unsuitable applicants usually means one or more of:
1. High unemployment.
2. People don't understand the role.
3. Pay for the advertised role is high compared to other roles.

1 isn't currently a factor, 2 may be a secondary factor but I think at the moment people want well paid roles and train driver roles are high paid compared to most roles, especially ones where you can get paid a good salary while you're being trained up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2022 ==

Shortages where? I've been looking to jumpship from current FOC and can't see anyone really recruiting...

That's kind of the issue here. ASLEF claim that Avanti do not have enough drivers to cover their timetable but are too much a cheapskate company to recruit the necessary numbers and rely too much on overtime which is now coming back to bite them.

Same with Northern. Daily cancellations due to driver shortages. Yet the only vacancies they have advertised are conductor roles, depot drivers, cleaners and office staff. You can apply to be an trainee train driver but they obviously won't be ready to go out by themselves for quite a while, even after the vacancies are filled.

 

[43066]

1. High unemployment.
2. People don't understand the role.
3. Pay for the advertised role is high compared to other roles.

4. People who apply can’t actually pass the selection or perform in the role to the required standard…

 

[Carl98k]

4. People who apply can’t actually pass the selection or perform in the role to the required standard…

Do many fail the training? If so what causes this? I only ask as if the psychometric tests filter suitable candidates, why the failure. As in pairs they should pass, maybe not applying themselves ect.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2022 ==

*on paper they should pass (typo).

 

[43066]

Do many fail the training? If so what causes this? I only ask as if the psychometric tests filter suitable candidates, why the failure. As in pairs they should pass, maybe not applying themselves ect.

5/8 of my trainee course. That’s a lot worse than average, to be fair. But far, far more fail at the application stage.

Of the three that failed two certainly had a bad attitude and underestimated what was expected, one just couldn’t do the job, despite working harder than anyone.

 

[Carl98k]

5/8 of my trainee course. That’s a lot worse than average, to be fair. But far, far more fail at the application stage.

That’s much higher than I thought to be fair. I’m led to believe the instructors will give you all they help they can. Did you know why they failed?

 

[43066]

That’s much higher than I thought to be fair. I’m led to believe the instructors will give you all they help they can. Did you know why they failed?

Yep - amended my post as you were typing. If you pass the tests and apply yourself you should be fine.

The fact you’re asking the question is a good sign .

 

[Carl98k]

Yep - amended my post as you were typing. If you pass the tests and apply yourself you should be fine.

The fact you’re asking the question is a good sign .

I’m starting in less than two weeks so thought I’d ask.

 

[ComUtoR]

That’s much higher than I thought to be fair. I’m led to believe the instructors will give you all they help they can. Did you know why they failed?

Its also down the the more ruthless nature of the railway. Pass marks are strictly adhered to and options for additional attempts are limited. Limited attempts can also be put down to the way recruitment is done and available courses.

I wish it was different and I believe some TOCs do keep pushing people until they pass. Part of passing the psychometrics is to show you have the right aptitude for training so you have a greater chance at succeeding.

The failure rate gets smaller and smaller as you progress.

Sift
Psychometrics
MMI
DMI
Medical
PTS
Rules
Traction
Practical Handling
Initial driving assessments.

You get failures at every level but it tapers off quite dramatically after rules.

 

[northwichcat]

4. People who apply can’t actually pass the selection or perform in the role to the required standard…

Which suggests 2 and/or 3 is the underlying reason. They are applying for a role they can't get. Maybe they don't understand what is required or maybe the high salary tempts them to submit an application. That's because the worst thing that can happen is they aren't recruited and the best thing that can happen is they can now afford a house, car, holiday, lifestyle etc. which their current salary doesn't allow.

 

[ComUtoR]

They are applying for a role they can't get. Maybe they don't understand what is required or maybe the high salary tempts them to submit an application because the worse thing that can happen is they aren't recruited.

The railway does have a very open recruitment policy. The bar to entry is also very low.

When I applied I didn't know anything about the railway or that the application process had such a high failure rate. I literally applied with the thought, whats the worst thta can happen. Obviously the worst did happen.. I got the job

 

[Economist]

I think there are problems with some of the selection and training at the moment. Firstly, there seem to be a lot of people who read in a tabloid that train drivers have an easy life and they end up totally underestimating how hard it can be. They end up on a training course, then out with an instructor and struggle in one way or another. These people tend to have minimal resilience when things get difficult because they want a nice easy life. Then HR stop management from giving them a "chop ride" and the trainee continues until they fail their final assessment. Then you have some TOCs trying to rush people through their driving hours as quickly as possible, resulting in failed final assessments and/or first year driver incidents. There are some very good trainees, though they seem rare these days.

As an instructor, I find the whole thing frustrating, personally I think instructors should have a greater role in driver selection. I've seen a few trainees come through and wondered how on earth they passed the aptitude tests.

 

[ComUtoR]

As an instructor, I find the whole thing frustrating, personally I think instructors should have a greater role in driver selection. I've seen a few trainees come through and wondered how on earth they passed the aptitude tests.

Wow, you made instructor quite quickly. Congratulations.

 

[CardiffDan]

I think there are problems with some of the selection and training at the moment. Firstly, there seem to be a lot of people who read in a tabloid that train drivers have an easy life and they end up totally underestimating how hard it can be. They end up on a training course, then out with an instructor and struggle in one way or another. These people tend to have minimal resilience when things get difficult because they want a nice easy life. Then HR stop management from giving them a "chop ride" and the trainee continues until they fail their final assessment. Then you have some TOCs trying to rush people through their driving hours as quickly as possible, resulting in failed final assessments and/or first year driver incidents. There are some very good trainees, though they seem rare these days.

As an instructor, I find the whole thing frustrating, personally I think instructors should have a greater role in driver selection. I've seen a few trainees come through and wondered how on earth they passed the aptitude tests.

For someone who struggled to pass the dmi and found it hard, maybe you should be a little more supportive to those struggling.

Not exactly sure what a chop ride is, but I'm guessing it's what the mighty think those who struggle should get and pushed out of their job.

Maybe they should do that to those who cant pass a simple chat with a driver manager, and the workplace might be a little more positive and supportive.

But you know what the old saying is. Those who can't do, teach..

 

[357]

Then you have some TOCs trying to rush people through their driving hours as quickly as possible, resulting in failed final assessments and/or first year driver incidents. There are some very good trainees, though they seem rare these days.

As an instructor, I find the whole thing frustrating, personally I think instructors should have a greater role in driver selection. I've seen a few trainees come through and wondered how on earth they passed the aptitude tests.

Absolutely agree. It's not unusual at some TOCs for trainees to be pulled into formal meetings and have notes recorded in their personal files about not getting through their driving hours quickly enough - I've known a trainee be threatened with a return to the shunter grade in one of these meetings.

 

[ComUtoR]

Maybe they should do that to those who cant pass a simple chat with a driver manager, and the workplace might be a little more positive and supportive.

If a Trainee doesn't meet the pass mark then the Training School / Department will have already made the choice. It can be that ruthless.

A simple with a Driver Manager isn't always the best option. If it gets that serious then it's potentially already past the point of no return.

Different if it's back at depot and under DI etc. But again, it should never get to that level. Trainees should build relationships, including with their DMs etc and yes, a DM should be supporting their Trainees and dealing with training issues. Any issues should be brought up at the earliest point and the weekly/daily paperwork is there to help evidence issues.

Nobody want people to fail and support should always be offered. Generally it does and most who go through the process will become Drivers. It's a long and bumpy road for sure.

 

[Economist]

Wow, you made instructor quite quickly. Congratulations.

Thank you, there's quite a few it seems who start instructing fairly early in their careers, especially at my depot.

For someone who struggled to pass the dmi and found it hard, maybe you should be a little more supportive to those struggling.

Not exactly sure what a chop ride is, but I'm guessing it's what the mighty think those who struggle should get and pushed out of their job.

Maybe they should do that to those who cant pass a simple chat with a driver manager, and the workplace might be a little more positive and supportive.

But you know what the old saying is. Those who can't do, teach..

I found the DMI process tough because a lot of it is how you sell yourself at the competency-based questions and I'm hopeless at that. I tend to come into my own at proper technical interviews and I've received offers resulting from both of the most recent ones I've sat.

I've seen cases where multiple instructors have said that a trainee is outright dangerous, at that point I think a manager should do a couple of trips with the trainee, make their own mind up and act on it. It's unfair on the travelling public, the trainee and the instructor to wait for an ICA to be failed. Such a trip would give a trainee a fair hearing too, I read of a case on here where a trainee was binned on the word of an instructor they just didn't get on with, a trip with a manager might have changed that.

In train driving, you have to be able to "do" before you can "teach". Admittedly, the three and a half years of "doing" by myself before I started teaching last year isn't as much as used to be the case.

Absolutely agree. It's not unusual at some TOCs for trainees to be pulled into formal meetings and have notes recorded in their personal files about not getting through their driving hours quickly enough - I've known a trainee be threatened with a return to the shunter grade in one of these meetings.

That seems harsh, I don't believe in sending people out on their own at 225 hours. With lots of routes and traction types, 300 hours is a sensible minimum in my book. There are quite a few factors beyond a trainee's control when it comes to the rate of hour-building.

 

[357]

That seems harsh, I don't believe in sending people out on their own at 225 hours. With lots of routes and traction types, 300 hours is a sensible minimum in my book. There are quite a few factors beyond a trainee's control when it comes to the rate of hour-building.

I'd be interested to see if there's a link between rushed hour building and first 1/2 years driver incidents.

 

[railfan99]

I suppose committed Sundays (ie you work it if you can’t find cover and it’s on top of your normal four day week) is arguably a form of compulsory overtime. Also working weeks are worked out on an average number of hours so there will be weeks where a few hours of “compulsory overtime” naturally occurs as a result of working normal shifts.

In the UK for TOCs' drivers, with specific reference to Avanti West Coast, what's the maximum number of days one can work in a fortnight? Is it 10 (i.e. 2 x 4 days weeks plus one extra day per week)?

If it's a four day rostered week, what's the maximum number of hours in a shift - 10?

While a $64 million dollar question, what's normal gross earnings per annum for a driver with say five years' experience before any overtime, but including any shift allowances and assuming that he works a mix of shifts i.e. early start some weeks, later start in others?

As a comparison from my nation, a Melbourne, Australia Metro Trains (suburban trains) driver before significant overtime might make a gross (i.e. before tax) of A$115000 a year (GBP68000).

 

[Watershed]

In the UK for TOCs' drivers, with specific reference to Avanti West Coast, what's the maximum number of days one can work in a fortnight? Is it 10 (i.e. 2 x 4 days weeks plus one extra day per week)?

This is limited by the "Hidden rules", which are really just a set of recommendations that came from the Hidden investigation into the Clapham Junction crash in 1988, but which have been fossilised into an industry standard:

A.2.1 The limits on working time applicable to the railway group prior to the compliance date of GH/RT 4004 are set out below:-
(a) No more than 12 hours to be worked per turn of duty:
(b) No more than 72 hours to be worked per calendar wekk ( Sunday to Saturday)
(c) A minimum rest period of 12 hours between booking off from a turn of duty to booking on for the next turn. This may be reduced to 8 hours at the weekly shift changeover, in the case of staff working a shift pattern that rotates or alternates on a weekly basis.
(d) No more than 13 turns of duty to be workied in any 14 day period

In reality most TOCs have far more stringent limits than this, in order to comply with the ROGS Regulations, but some freight operators take things right up to the wire.

But certainly, if you're doing overtime, you can do quite a bit more than your rostered 4/5 days a week.

If it's a four day rostered week, what's the maximum number of hours in a shift - 10?

As per union agreements, the longest rostered shift for Avanti drivers is 10 hours. That's generally the highest it gets for most passenger operators, with the exception of certain depots working over long rural routes, e.g. Wick/Kyle/Mallaig/Fort William/Inverness.

While a $64 million dollar question, what's normal gross earnings per annum for a driver with say five years' experience before any overtime, but including any shift allowances and assuming that he works a mix of shifts i.e. early start some weeks, later start in others?

They would just be on their basic pay. There aren't many passenger operators that still have shift/mileage allowances. At Avanti the basic salary for a fully qualified driver, after their first couple of years, is £67,486. That's the second highest for any "franchised" operator - only LNER pay more (and Eurostar, but they are an open access operator with a very unique operating environment).

 

[357]

. At Avanti the basic salary for a fully qualified driver, after their first couple of years, is £67,486. That's the second highest for any "franchised" operator - only LNER pay more (and Eurostar, but they are an open access operator with a very unique operating environment).

C2C are on £68,575 but the ASLEF website hasn't been updated for most TOCs in a long time... You'll see what I mean if you look at the c2c page !