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What is a substantial meal?

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island

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A lot of social media and news debate today ahead of the commencement of the level 3 restrictions tomorrow in Merseyside.

Schedule 1 to the Health Protection Coronavirus Local COVID-19 Alert Level Very High England Regulations 2020 requires, at section 16, that alcohol be served for consumption on-premises only as part of a table meal, and the meal is such as might be expected to be served as the main midday or main evening meal, or as a main course at either such meal.

This definition appears to have been lifted word for word from Ireland’s SI 234/2020, but removing the additional requirement that the meal be ”of a kind having regard to all the circumstances for which it would be reasonable to charge a sum that is not less than €9”.

So what food qualifies? A bag of crisps perhaps doesn’t and a steak probably does, but there’s space in between. When pressed on BBC television earlier, Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick suggested a Cornish pasty is insufficient but if served on a plate with chips or salad it would be fine...
 
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Bantamzen

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A lot of social media and news debate today ahead of the commencement of the level 3 restrictions tomorrow in Merseyside.

Schedule 1 to the Health Protection Coronavirus Local COVID-19 Alert Level Very High England Regulations 2020 requires, at section 16, that alcohol be served for consumption on-premises only as part of a table meal, and the meal is such as might be expected to be served as the main midday or main evening meal, or as a main course at either such meal.

This definition appears to have been lifted word for word from Ireland’s SI 234/2020, but removing the additional requirement that the meal be ”of a kind having regard to all the circumstances for which it would be reasonable to charge a sum that is not less than €9”.

So what food qualifies? A bag of crisps perhaps doesn’t and a steak probably does, but there’s space in between. When pressed on BBC television earlier, Housing Secretary Robert Jenrick suggested a Cornish pasty is insufficient but if served on a plate with chips or salad it would be fine...

Can open..... worms everywhere.....
 

duncanp

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The other issue is how many drinks you are allowed to have with a meal that fits the definition.

A Cornish Pasty & Chips plus 6 pints please. :D

Can open..... worms everywhere.....

But would a can of worms qualify as a substantial meal?
 

kristiang85

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This is going to be a tricky one to police.

In London I've seen pubs charge £5 for a sausage roll (!!!), whereas in Spoons you can get a sizeable plate of food for £3/4. I think the 'value' of a food contributing to whether it is a meal or not is a bit of a grey area.

Some people (like my better half) can get by with only a side portion of chips for lunch, whereas I'd need at least a starter and main along with that side for it to count as my meal - so, again, the quantity of food is a grey area too.

They just need to go down the simple route and say anywhere that offers food in a kitchen (i.e. more than plonking a bag of crisps on your table) should count as a 'meal serving' place. Otherwise, how to Wetherspoons get accepted as exempt? The vast majority of customers are there for the cheap drink, not a meal (or will this mean customers *have* to order food to be allowed in?).


As an aside, I'll post this fascinating historical article, as I think this belongs here and might be of interest to some: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/raines-sandwich

NEAR THE END OF THE 19th century, New Yorkers out for a drink partook in one of the more unusual rituals in the annals of hospitality. When they ordered an ale or whisky, the waiter or bartender would bring it out with a sandwich. Generally speaking, the sandwich was not edible. It was “an old desiccated ruin of dust-laden bread and mummified ham or cheese,” wrote the playwright Eugene O’Neill. Other times it was made of rubber. Bar staff would commonly take the sandwich back seconds after it had arrived, pair it with the next beverage order, and whisk it over to another patron’s table. Some sandwiches were kept in circulation for a week or more.

Bar owners insisted on this bizarre charade to avoid breaking the law—specifically, the excise law of 1896, which restricted how and when drinks could be served in New York State. The so-called Raines Law was a combination of good intentions, unstated prejudices, and unforeseen consequences, among them the comically unsavory Raines sandwich.

The new law did not come out of nowhere. Republican reformers, many of them based far upstate in Albany, had been trying for years to curb public drunkenness. They were also frustrated about New York City’s lax enforcement of so-called Sabbath laws, which included a ban on Sunday boozing. New York Republicans spoke for a constituency largely comprised of rural and small-town churchgoers. But the party had also gained a foothold in Democratic New York City, where a 37-year-old firebrand named Theodore Roosevelt had been pushing a law-and-order agenda as president of the city’s newly organized police commission. Roosevelt, a supporter of the Raines Law, predicted that it would “solve whatever remained of the problem of Sunday closing.”

New York City at the time was home to some 8,000 saloons. The seediest among them were “dimly lit, foul-smelling, rickety-chaired, stale-beer dives” that catered to “vagrants, shipless sailors, incompetent thieves, [and] aging streetwalkers,” Richard Zacks writes in Island of Vice, his book-length account of Roosevelt’s reform campaign.

The 1896 Raines Law was designed to put dreary watering holes like these out of business. It raised the cost of an annual liquor license to $800, three times what it had cost before and a tenfold increase for beer-only taverns. It stipulated that saloons could not open within 200 feet of a school or church, and raised the drinking age from 16 to 18. In addition, it banned one of the late 19th-century saloon’s most potent enticements: the free lunch. At McSorley’s, for example, cheese, soda bread, and raw onions were on the house. (The 160-year-old bar still sells a tongue-in-cheek version of this today.) Most controversial of all was the law’s renewed assault on Sunday drinking. Its author, Finger Lakes region senator John W. Raines, eliminated the “golden hour” grace period that followed the stroke of midnight on Saturday. His law also forced saloon owners to keep their curtains open on Sunday, making it considerably harder for patrolmen to turn a blind eye.

The Raines Law took effect on April 1, 1896. Progressives scored its first weekend in action a bone-dry success. Bars closed Saturday at midnight; the liquor flow on Sunday slowed to a trickle. RAINES MAKES A THIRST, a New York World headline quipped. But while the teetotalers celebrated over lemonade, plenty of booze-deprived New Yorkers were fuming.

Behind this lifestyle tug-of-war lay a cultural conflict of national proportions. Those in favor of the Sunday ban, generally middle-class and Protestant, saw it as a cornerstone of social improvement. For those against, including the city’s tide of German and Irish immigrants, it was an act of repression—an especially spiteful one because it limited how the average laborer could enjoy himself on his one day off. The Sunday ban was not popular, to say the least, among the city’s Jews, who’d already observed their Sabbath the day before.

Opponents pointed out that existing Sabbath drinking laws were hypocritical anyway. An explicit loophole had been written into the law itself: it allowed lodging houses with ten rooms or more to serve guests drinks with meals seven days a week. Not incidentally, wealthy New Yorkers tended to dine out at the city’s ritzy hotel restaurants on Sundays, the usual day off for live-in servants.

Intentionally or not, the Raines Law left wiggle room for the rich. But a loophole was a loophole, and Sunday was many a proprietor’s most profitable day of business. By the following weekend, a vanguard of downtown saloon-owners were gleefully testing the law’s limits. A suspicious number of private “clubs” were founded that April, and saloons started handing out membership cards to their regulars. Meanwhile, proprietors converted basements and attic spaces into “rooms,” cut hasty deals with neighboring lodging-houses, and threw tablecloths over pool tables. They also started dishing up the easiest, cheapest, most reusable meal they could get away with: the Raines sandwich.

Law enforcement declared itself satisfied. “I would not say that a cracker is a complete meal in itself, but a sandwich is,” an assistant D.A. in Brooklyn told an assembly of police captains as the first Raines hotels sprouted up. Remarkably, the courts upheld these definitions of “meal” and “guest.” Reformers were understandably flabbergasted. The law itself was sound, Raines complained. It was the police and the courts that had made it laughable. He and his progressive allies had seriously underestimated just how far New Yorkers would go for a drink.

The court decisions were a turning point. With summer approaching, “Raines hotels” sprang up everywhere. By the next year’s election season, there were more than 1,500 of them in New York. Brooklyn, still a separate municipality at this point, went from 13 registered hotels to 800 in six months, and its tally of social clubs grew tenfold.

For the libertines of New York City, Zacks writes, the second half of 1896 was “too good to be true, a drunken daydream.” The hotel carve-out allowed drinks to flow at all hours. There was no obligatory last call, and the city’s liveliest drinking spots now offered cheap beds mere steps away. For Raines and the law’s other architects, this was the most alarming unintended consequence: their efforts to make New Yorkers virtuous had caused a spike in casual sex and prostitution.

The state government ratified a set of clarifying amendments a year later. The free-for-all atmosphere faded, albeit slowly. Still, for years following the passage of the Raines Law, a general state of confusion and case-by-case dealings reigned. Following a wave of enforcement in 1902, hotel proprietors arrived at a creative solution: charging a premium for the obligatory sandwich. The Waldorf-Astoria went the classy route, offering unwanted meat patties instead, but the result was the same: a 50- or 100-percent markup to each drink ordered. The police seem to have appreciated the clarity of this arrangement. As long as Sunday drinking remained “an expensive luxury,” the Times suggested, its excesses would be tolerated by the average upstanding citizen. And for many a Sunday drinker, even some of the poorer ones, the inflated tab was preferable to risking arrest in an illicit backroom. Raines himself saw this as “the only compromise that is possible in New York.”

The Raines Law tussle continued well into the 20th century. The New York Supreme Court ruled in 1907 that a Sunday meal must be ordered and delivered in “good faith” for the accompanying drinks to be legal. Under pressure, brewers started refusing to supply Raines hotels. A new state excise law in 1917 contained a minimum-room requirement that effectively prevented the opening of new ones.

But the Raines Law debacle was merely a prelude for what was to come. New York reformers had long allied themselves with the Anti-Saloon League, a civilian organization with Midwestern origins that would morph into one of the most powerful pressure groups in U.S. history. By 1919, the efforts of the ASL made nationwide Prohibition the law of the land, putting an end to such quaint half-measures as the Raines sandwich and replacing the Raines hotel with the speakeasy.
 

WelshBluebird

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Worth saying this isn't a new thing. I've been turned away from pubs near football grounds before because their licence restricts their ability to sell alcohol on match days where they are only allowed to sell alcohol if the drink is being purchased with a meal.

Though still, utter stupidity and will just mean that smaller independent places that are most often wet led will lose out in favour of the likes of Spoons etc. Sad.
 

SS4

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If I had my way it would based on calories (or more generally energy). Say anything more than 1Mcal is a substantial meal. Ideally a drink would also be included so manufacturers would finally have to put nutritional information on alcoholic drinks greater than 1% by volume

Might also encourage healthy eating

ough still, utter stupidity and will just mean that smaller independent places that are most often wet led will lose out in favour of the likes of Spoons etc. Sad.

That's the plan, funnel money from the poor to the rich.
 

edwin_m

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According to the BBC answer is the same as for the rule that people under age can only drink alcohol if they are also having a meal. All publicans should be aware of this so it sounds like a storm in a teacup, or perhaps a can of worms.
 

johnnychips

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NEAR THE END OF THE 19th century, New Yorkers out for a drink partook in one of the more unusual rituals in the annals of hospitality. When they ordered an ale or whisky, the waiter or bartender would bring it out with a sandwich.

‘Ma Bates’ in Doncaster did this in the eighties so you could get a drink till twelve. You had to buy a small ham or cheese roll, which was, however, edible.
 

Chester1

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Worth saying this isn't a new thing. I've been turned away from pubs near football grounds before because their licence restricts their ability to sell alcohol on match days where they are only allowed to sell alcohol if the drink is being purchased with a meal.

Though still, utter stupidity and will just mean that smaller independent places that are most often wet led will lose out in favour of the likes of Spoons etc. Sad.
According to the BBC answer is the same as for the rule that people under age can only drink alcohol if they are also having a meal. All publicans should be aware of this so it sounds like a storm in a teacup, or perhaps a can of worms.

That was my reaction but I am sure the government will be ridiculed for the various inconsistencies it produces. Its not new to the UK and its been successfully rolled out as part of Covid restrictions in the Republic of Ireland, so it is worth trying.
 

ASharpe

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If this came into force in my local area would I be able to get a pint with my morning bacon sandwich?

*This is only an issue for the next 5 days as I'm back to working (from home) then.

**I'm confident a spoons breakfast wrap would count and I'd be happy to have that instead. Baked beans are the devil's work so no full English for me.

Does anyone know if airport pubs are included in this? Herself and I were going to go away this but now aren't so it doesn't really matter.
 

43066

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Some amusing guidance can be found in the cases cited below:


This sent social media into a flurry, with many asking what constituted such a serving. As ever, legal Twitter was on hand, specifically barrister Charles Holland who helpfully cited the 1965 case of Timmis v Millman.


The story goes that respondents Millman and Yarnold had been discovered in a hotel bar at 11.30pm consuming light ale and stout outside of permitted hours (but within the supper hour extension of the time). Justices found the sandwiches the pair were eating ‘were so substantial, and assisted by the pickles and beetroot so as to justify that it was a table meal and not a mere snack from the bar’.
 

Tetchytyke

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smaller independent places that are most often wet led will lose out in favour of the likes of Spoons

I'm sure Brexit-supporting Boris Johnson devising a law which will favour Brexit-supporting Tim Martin ahead of his competitors is purely coincidental!

According to the BBC answer is the same as for the rule that people under age can only drink alcohol if they are also having a meal. All publicans should be aware of this so it sounds like a storm in a teacup

Trying to define a meal in watertight legalese is almost impossible, but we all know what a meal is really, and publicans certainly do.

Pasties and pies would count, despite what Robert "Covid restrictions don't apply to me, they only apply to the plebs" Jenrick says.
 

Bletchleyite

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Trying to define a meal in watertight legalese is almost impossible, but we all know what a meal is really, and publicans certainly do.

Pasties and pies would count, despite what Robert "Covid restrictions don't apply to me, they only apply to the plebs" Jenrick says.

Yes, I think it's clear what is meant. A good guide is less what it is, but whether you sit down and eat it with a knife and fork, or if it's incidental to the drinking. And clearly once you've finished it it is time to go home. This is the important bit, as it's really a means of stopping people getting too drunk.
 

Busaholic

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The whole point of a Cornish pasty is that you not only do you not need chips with it, but it's a travesty of one should it be offered with them. It's meant to be a meal in itself, and a proper one is. The pie, mash and liquor shops of my London childhood never included a pasty variation, either. Jenrick should stick to what he knows about, which appears to be remarkably little even for this government of none of the talents.
 

43066

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I would say Spoons likely counts, yes. Food (if you'd call it that) is a very large part of their operation - and indeed I suspect they'd still be profitable (albeit less so) if they had to stop selling drink entirely.

It always amazes me that ‘spoons have the gall to charge money for the pigswill they serve up. Their pubs are generally very unpleasant environments in which to eat, unless you’re so drunk that you no longer care.

Dirty crockery, sticky tables, greasy, tasteless food, usually served up by equally greasy and disinterested waiting staff. Your standard supermarket ready meal tastes better! Yet, just as you say, it’s a bit part of their (very profitable) offering and the easily pleased seem to queue up for it.

The whole point of a Cornish pasty is that you not only do you not need chips with it, but it's a travesty of one should it be offered with them. It's meant to be a meal in itself, and a proper one is. The pie, mash and liquor shops of my London childhood never included a pasty variation, either. Jenrick should stick to what he knows about, which appears to be remarkably little even for this government of none of the talents.

Cornish pasties used to be a suitable calorie-dense meal for people who spent their working days toiling down mines or labouring in fields. These days they’re eaten by people who don’t do any exercise beyond rolling out of bed, opening their fridge, and sitting at a desk all day.

And yet a pastie is apparently no longer considered to be a full meal unless it’s served along with something else. No wonder we are turning into a nation of chubsters!
 

Busaholic

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It always amazes me that ‘spoons have the gall to charge money for the pigswill they serve up. Their pubs are generally very unpleasant environments in which to eat, unless you’re so drunk that you no longer care.

Dirty crockery, sticky tables, greasy, tasteless food, usually served up by equally greasy and disinterested waiting staff. Your standard supermarket ready meal tastes better! Yet, just as you say, it’s a bit part of their (very profitable) offering and the easily pleased seem to queue up for it.



Cornish pasties used to be a suitable calorie-dense meal for people who spent their working days toiling down mines or labouring in fields. These days they’re eaten by people who don’t do any exercise beyond rolling out of bed, opening their fridge, and sitting at a desk all day.

And yet a pastie is apparently no longer considered to be a full meal unless it’s served along with something else. No wonder we are turning into a nation of chubsters!
I got more pleasure from reading your post than anything I've read for a long time: you are so right, and it's such a specifically British thing too, consumption of unpalatable food just for the sake of piling on calories, as though most of are in need of them. The huge expanse of supermarket aisle devoted to crisps and the like says it all. I like a decent potato (or other vegetable) crisp as much as anyone, in moderation, but the majority of brands and 'flavours' could never be described as anything other than rubbish, as can be easily seen from the garish packaging. So much of what is allowed to be called 'chocolate' in the U.K. is like this too. I'm not immune to all this - I occasionally get an urge to go and purchase this junk from the late night shop yards from my home, and loathe myself for doing so within minutes of consuming it.
 

Bantamzen

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Yes, I think it's clear what is meant. A good guide is less what it is, but whether you sit down and eat it with a knife and fork, or if it's incidental to the drinking. And clearly once you've finished it it is time to go home. This is the important bit, as it's really a means of stopping people getting too drunk.

And I give you Tapas, order one tapas option per drink. Its a very civilised way to eat & drink, and would be a way to get around this.
 

AngusH

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On this topic, I'm reminded of a preserved railway buffet that, long ago, sold cheese rolls with every beer sale, presumably for licensing reasons. The supply ran out and the alcohol sales had to stop for the steward to make up more rolls ...



On wetherspoons, I've been to quite a few and not experienced the problems described, perhaps they're better in some parts of the country than others?
(Not in their pay nor a shareholder!)
 
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On wetherspoons, I've been to quite a few and not experienced the problems described, perhaps they're better in some parts of the country than others?
(Not in their pay nor a shareholder!)

I've always found their food to be acceptable as well as reasonably priced. I'm not a devotee and certainly not a fan of the owner, but they serve a useful purpose particularly when away from home and staying in a hotel which either doesn't serve food or charges more than the cost of the room for it. There is the bizarre spoons policy of not being able to get a slice of lemon with fish and chips, yet not being able to get a drink without one!
 

Bletchleyite

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I've always found their food to be acceptable as well as reasonably priced. I'm not a devotee and certainly not a fan of the owner, but they serve a useful purpose particularly when away from home and staying in a hotel which either doesn't serve food or charges more than the cost of the room for it. There is the bizarre spoons policy of not being able to get a slice of lemon with fish and chips, yet not being able to get a drink without one!

I just wish they'd pack in serving "chips" that are actually mashed potato in batter!

Slice potatoes and deep-fry them - there is no way to improve on that.
 

WelshBluebird

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It always amazes me that ‘spoons have the gall to charge money for the pigswill they serve up. Their pubs are generally very unpleasant environments in which to eat, unless you’re so drunk that you no longer care.

Dirty crockery, sticky tables, greasy, tasteless food, usually served up by equally greasy and disinterested waiting staff. Your standard supermarket ready meal tastes better! Yet, just as you say, it’s a bit part of their (very profitable) offering and the easily pleased seem to queue up for it.

The experience people have in Spoons really does depend on the particular location they go to in my experience.
I've been to awful ones and I've been to pretty OK ones. I wouldn't go beyond OK in terms of describing the experience, but in terms of value for money you won't get much better if you don't want to spend much.

That also applies to much of their business too - my partner works in the kitchen for one and from what she has said, how employees are treated varies hugely depending on the pub manager and how good (or not) they are! So if you have an issue with "disinterested staff" - then it is likely the manager is treating them like crap and you should probably cut them a bit of slack!
 

Howardh

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A "substantial meal" is p[robably more than you need, so will this fuel obesity and diabetes? A meal to me at lunchtime may well be a salad, bit of chicken and a few boiled potatoes or potato salad. Is that substantial? To get a glass of wine would I have to add a pork pie to it?

My local is a cafe during the day which turns into a bar in the evening, so no doubt the landlord will find a way of serving the absolute legal minimum and as much beer or wine as he can to go with it. With his beers and lager at £3/pint (and some excellent bottled ales at £3) a small meal on top for a fiver will still be a great deal.
 

takno

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A "substantial meal" is p[robably more than you need, so will this fuel obesity and diabetes? A meal to me at lunchtime may well be a salad, bit of chicken and a few boiled potatoes or potato salad. Is that substantial? To get a glass of wine would I have to add a pork pie to it?

My local is a cafe during the day which turns into a bar in the evening, so no doubt the landlord will find a way of serving the absolute legal minimum and as much beer or wine as he can to go with it. With his beers and lager at £3/pint (and some excellent bottled ales at £3) a small meal on top for a fiver will still be a great deal.
Hmm. I really prefer drinking to eating, but I think I'd be willing to spend the evening in the pub eating leftover pork pies for free. Just so they didn't go to waste.
 

island

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I've always found their food to be acceptable as well as reasonably priced. I'm not a devotee and certainly not a fan of the owner, but they serve a useful purpose particularly when away from home and staying in a hotel which either doesn't serve food or charges more than the cost of the room for it. There is the bizarre spoons policy of not being able to get a slice of lemon with fish and chips, yet not being able to get a drink without one!
The app now asks whether you want a slice of fruit in your soft drink :lol:
 

Journeyman

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So, you have to order a meal to be served booze, but (a) no-one says you actually have to eat it and (b) no-one seems to have stipulated a reasonable maximum amount of booze per meal ordered. See the problem here???
 

43066

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The experience people have in Spoons really does depend on the particular location they go to in my experience.
I've been to awful ones and I've been to pretty OK ones.

To be fair it does vary by location - they have some branches in characterful historical buildings. The beer range is also pretty good, it’s just that I find the food too awful to countenance (I realise I’m in a minority!)

So if you have an issue with "disinterested staff" - then it is likely the manager is treating them like crap and you should probably cut them a bit of slack!

I’m sure that’s true. Spoons is very much the Ryanair or Sports Direct of the pub world, and those kinds of business treat their staff appallingly as a rule.
 
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