What is a service?

[glbotu]

Apologies for the somewhat cryptic thread title, but I can't really summarise my question in a title brilliantly.

Anyway, I was looking at services at Lincoln and I was wondering why 2P61 Scunthorpe - Lincoln is considered as a service, rather than a Scunthorpe - Sheffield and a Sheffield - Lincoln, just diagrammed with the same unit? It's not like it's the quickest way of getting from Scunthorpe - Lincoln (you'd change at Doncaster for the next EMT service).

There seem to be quite a few of these services which seem like 2 services, but are really just one, especially on Northern. Is there any good reason for it? I get some of them (like everything via Bradford Interchange, which is the quickest way to many destinations), but in this case it seems strange.

 

[bradders1983]

It's not like it's the quickest way of getting from Scunthorpe - Lincoln (you'd change at Doncaster for the next EMT service).

Not true at all, there are a number of services where getting the first available one via Sheffield is quicker than waiting for the infrequent direct service. For example the 1104 Doncaster-Lincoln service (originating Scunthorpe, via Sheffield) gets into Lincoln at 1304 - only 3 minutes after the next direct service from Doncaster sets off

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The Scunthorpe to Lincoln is direct, and if it was split Lincoln passengers would think they've lost their Meadowhall service. And I doubt Northern want people to use EMT instead.

 

[bradders1983]

The Scunthorpe to Lincoln is direct, and if it was split Lincoln passengers would think they've lost their Meadowhall service. And I doubt Northern want people to use EMT instead.

I meant direct with no need for reversals Plus Im sure (I could be utterly wrong here) that part of the SYPTE funding for the Sheffield-Lincoln route is that stations up to Worksop are linked to Meadowhall with no need to change. Hence why the Scunthorpe-Sheffield service is "extended" to Lincoln.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Not true at all, there are a number of services where getting the first available one via Sheffield is quicker than waiting for the infrequent direct service. For example the 1104 Doncaster-Lincoln service (originating Scunthorpe, via Sheffield) gets into Lincoln at 1304 - only 3 minutes after the next direct service from Doncaster sets off

Although it saves a bit of time to change at Retford and pick up the same train. Mind you, that's at the cost of a long wait at Retford - I'd probably get a cuppa and enjoy a 2-hour snooze on the direct service!

 

[tbtc]

Im sure (I could be utterly wrong here) that part of the SYPTE funding for the Sheffield-Lincoln route is that stations up to Worksop are linked to Meadowhall with no need to change

That's my understanding.

Previously, the Lincoln service has run through to Huddersfield (via Barnsley), it currently runs *from* Scunthorpe but *to* Adwick, but the net result is the same - stations like Kiveton Park have a direct service to Meadowhall (doesn't matter to the PTE whether the train serves Lincoln/ Scunthorpe/ Huddersfield at either end).

It's an interesting question that the OP raises - there seem to be periods when services are advertised as "through" (e.g. the Blackpool - Manchester - Huddersfield service run by Northern) and periods where they are cut (e.g. the end of the "Grand Tour" of West Yorkshire (Selby - Leeds - Bradford - Halifax - Huddersfield - Wakefield). Merits in both, and it does give us something to discuss in terms of "services you can do in one direction but not the other way" (e.g. since the diagramming means the Scunthorpe - Lincoln returns as a Lincoln - Adwick... that unit then going to form an Adwick - Sheffield and Sheffield - Scunthorpe working).

One recent "through working" is from Adwick to Manchester (which provides a through service from Meadowhall to Hope Valley stations) - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y30023/2015/09/17/advanced - doubt there are many "end to end" passengers, but maybe enough doing Meadowhall to Dore/ Hathersage etc at 16:57 to make it worthwhile. Sadly this doesn't allow a direct service from Adwick to Ardwick

 

[glbotu]

Actually, half the time, from Scunthorpe the quickest way is a change at Barnetby anyway. It's also cheaper on NRE (£14.40 v £35.50!!!!!).

From Doncaster, it always suggests you go via Retford/Newark.

As such, the only reason it seems to exist is due to the general national obsession with "direct" trains, regardless of whether it makes any sense to use them.

I suppose it makes sense for the "shorter" journey possibilities (like tbtc said Kiveton Park - Meadowhall), but it does lead to some rather curious and confusing services. But then this isn't done elsewhere.

Bringing up the recent example (from another thread) of the early morning Saltburn - Newcastle. This is not advertised as a direct service to Carlisle, although

a) It uses the same train
b) The wait time at Newcastle is relatively short
c) A decent number of passengers from south of Newcastle stay on for places like Metrocentre/Hexham.

It's the confusing way in which these decisions are made that makes things seem odd.

 

[bradders1983]

Actually, just noticed that all five EMT Doncaster-Lincoln services "terminate" at Lincoln, yet coming the other way 4/5 of the services originate from well before Lincoln.

Is this accurate, or is this another example of an service not being advertised as carrying on past where it actually terminates? If the unit gets to Lincoln and then is used on another route a few mins later, why not just call it a through train to wherever it then goes to?

 

[berneyarms]

Mainly because they don't do another trip straight away but stay in Lincoln for 30 minutes or so!

 

[bradders1983]

Mainly because they don't do another trip straight away but stay in Lincoln for 30 minutes or so!

True enough, what is the cut-off time in minutes though for not advertising a service as a through service, if one exists at all?

I remember when I lived in Milnrow on the Oldham Loop Line. I am sure that a few times I got on a train to Rochdale and on the front of the train it said "Rochdale" and was advertised at the station as such. When it got to Rochdale it sat idle for a few minutes, and then continued to Manchester, advertised as such at Rochdale station!

 

[talltim]

It has to be remembered that just because a seemingly obtuse service between two endpoint is slower than other methods, it may be the quickest route between two of the midpoints, or an endpoint and a midpoint.

 

[Tomnick]

Actually, just noticed that all five EMT Doncaster-Lincoln services "terminate" at Lincoln, yet coming the other way 4/5 of the services originate from well before Lincoln.

Is this accurate, or is this another example of an service not being advertised as carrying on past where it actually terminates? If the unit gets to Lincoln and then is used on another route a few mins later, why not just call it a through train to wherever it then goes to?

In Lincoln's case in particular, history no doubt plays a part too - prior to resignalling (since when there hasn't been any enormous change in the timetables), virtually all terminating services required a shunt before picking up their next working, even if then continuing in the same direction, so couldn't be advertised as a through service anyway.

On the other hand, some Up Corby services stand at Kettering for over half an hour, connecting into other London trains in the meantime, yet are still advertised as through services (and, in the case of the one that comes through from Derby, apparently reasonably popular for through passengers because of the cheap tickets?).

 

[bradders1983]

In Lincoln's case in particular, history no doubt plays a part too - prior to resignalling (since when there hasn't been any enormous change in the timetables), virtually all terminating services required a shunt before picking up their next working, even if then continuing in the same direction, so couldn't be advertised as a through service anyway.
.

Fair enough, but there are plenty of through services going through Lincoln today: Sleaford-Doncaster and Newark-Grimbsy two of the "regular" ones.

 

[berneyarms]

Fair enough, but there are plenty of through services going through Lincoln today: Sleaford-Doncaster and Newark-Grimbsy two of the "regular" ones.

Again though, looking at Realtime Trains, as I already explained to you, most of the trains from Doncaster have long layovers between trips which make them impractical to show as through workings.

The 11:16 arrival from Doncaster goes back to Doncaster at 11:54.
The 13:54 arrival from Doncaster goes to Peterborough at 14:41.
The 15:15 arrival from Doncaster goes to Newark North Gate at 15:45.
The 21:25 arrival from Doncaster doesn't do anything else.

I'm not sure about the 20:25 arrival - I suspect it shuts down for the night as well.

It's just the way the timetable has been constructed - where it's feasible to offer through workings, the schedulers will do so. But those trains don't really lend themselves to that.

 

[bradders1983]

Again though, looking at Realtime Trains, as I already explained to you, most of the trains from Doncaster have long layovers between trips which make them impractical to show as through workings.

The 11:16 arrival from Doncaster goes back to Doncaster at 11:54.
The 13:54 arrival from Doncaster goes to Peterborough at 14:41.
The 15:15 arrival from Doncaster goes to Newark North Gate at 15:45.
The 21:25 arrival from Doncaster doesn't do anything else.

I'm not sure about the 20:25 arrival - I suspect it shuts down for the night as well.

It's just the way the timetable has been constructed - where it's feasible to offer through workings, the schedulers will do so. But those trains don't really lend themselves to that.

From the timings above, yes, not feasible to advertise as a through service. Does make you wonder though what the cut-off time would be to NOT advertise it as a through service. For example if the layover was 10 minutes (some XC services have a layover of that duration on the network), would it be advertised as a through one?

 

[berneyarms]

From the timings above, yes, not feasible to advertise as a through service. Does make you wonder though what the cut-off time would be to NOT advertise it as a through service. For example if the layover was 10 minutes (some XC services have a layover of that duration on the network), would it be advertised as a through one?

10 minutes is in my view perfectly acceptable, particularly on lengthy journeys.

On XC services that kind of wait is needed at certain intermediate stations to try to minimise the knock-on effect of potential delays in one section of the journey on the rest of the trip.

 

[Tomnick]

Fair enough, but there are plenty of through services going through Lincoln today: Sleaford-Doncaster and Newark-Grimbsy two of the "regular" ones.

Most through services will have been through services since before resignalling though, that's my point! Those that are split now will, similarly, mostly have been split previously - where the 'cutoff' would've been whether their platform (especially on the Up, with only one platform available for terminating trains) was needed for anything else during their layover!

 

[reb0118]

Certain Ayr/Glasgow to North Berwick & v.v. advertised through services sit at the Waverley for 20 mins. or so - but conversely some that only wait a few minutes are not shown as through.

ScotRail have form for this as I remember a North Berwick to Perth working that had less than 10 mins. at Waverley but as it was not shown as a through train it did not come up as a connection as there was less than the minimum connection time - there were a surprising number of "through" passengers though - esp. from Musselburgh to stations in Fife.

 

[WelshBluebird]

One that has always puzzled me is the 22.04 Cardiff Central to Bristol Temple Meads service (arrives into Bristol at 23.05) which near enough always then forms the 23.20 Bristol Temple Meads to Frome service. I am guessing the main reason it is advertised as two seperate services rather than a through train is because it gives FGW (oh sorry GWR) the flexibility in what stock to use if the Cardiff service is late.

 

[bradders1983]

Suppose part of the reason to avoid advertising as through services is to avoid confusion for passengers. For example, in the one above, the number of passengers at Cardiff wanting to go beyond Bristol to Frome must be minute, if the 2204 train to Bristol TM suddenly becomes the 2204 train to Frome, many people might think there is no longer a service that goes to Bristol.

 

[Dai Corner]

Suppose part of the reason to avoid advertising as through services is to avoid confusion for passengers. For example, in the one above, the number of passengers at Cardiff wanting to go beyond Bristol to Frome must be minute, if the 2204 train to Bristol TM suddenly becomes the 2204 train to Frome, many people might think there is no longer a service that goes to Bristol.

Although very few trains from Cardiff to Bristol TM terminate there. Generally they go to Portsmouth Harbour or Taunton.