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What is a 'rail passenger'

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zebbedee

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Hi, I'd like to ask the collective wisdom of this site if there is a statutory definition of 'rail passenger' as refered to in the various acts with regard to the railways or is it taken a obvious.

Eg, if you are in a rail station but have not travelled and do not intend to travel are you not a rail passenger etc.

Cheers
 
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zebbedee

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Ok since I have had no luck, specifically I'm interested in is there a definition of 'a passenger by rail' as present in the 1889 act. Is it the obvious a person carried by the railways in trains or is it more general extending to the general public present on the railways?
 

DaveNewcastle

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Simple questions on here rarely have simple answers!

Going back to the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 we find references are generally to 'persons' until we reach those sections to do with carrying passengers (S.86 - S.105), and which begin with a title which refers to 'passengers'
Passengers and goods on railways.
And with respect to the carrying of passengers and goods upon the railway, and the tolls to be taken thereon, be it enacted as follows:

and the first of those clauses uses the term 'passengers':
86 Company to employ locomotive power, carriages, &c.
It shall be lawful for the company to use and employ locomotive engines or other moving power, and carriages and waggons to be drawn or propelled thereby, and to carry and convey upon the railway all such passengers and goods as shall be offered to them for that purpose"

Conversely, where a person is committing an offence, then the word "person" is used again:
104 Detention of offenders.
If any person be discovered, either in or after committing or attempting to commit any such offence as in the preceding enactment mentioned, . . .
but there's an inconsistency. Here we have an offender being described as a 'passenger' and as a 'person':
103 Penalty on passengers practising frauds on the company.
If any person knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect, on arriving at the point to which he has paid his fare, to quit such carriage, every such person shall for every such offence forfeit a sum not exceeding . . .

Moving on to the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, We have the same distinction: 'Passengers' have tickets, 'persons' do not, though the distinction is blurred in the oft quoted S.5:
5.2 If a passenger having failed either to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or to pay his fare, refuses, on request, by an officer or servant of a railway company, . . .
and then again in the very next section the offender is a 'person':
5.3 If any person :-
(a) travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof, . . .

Coming up to date with the Railway Byelaws 1965 and Railway Byelaws 2005, we find only references to 'persons' and not to 'passengers', where neither term are defined.

Turning to case Law, we can find the definition which helps us in another grey area - there are those passengers who neither have a ticket nor are required to hold a ticket: 'gratuitous passengers'. (These might include children under the age at which a ticket is required, staff or other people with passes, permissions or rights to travel, even a child whose parent should have bought a ticket for them but has not done so.). See Austin vs Great Western Railway 1867. 'Gratuitous Passengers' will not, normally, have any Contractural rights to be conveyed and will not be bound by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. However they must be carried by a duty of care in tort and must observe the Railway Byelaws (which apply to all persons on Railway property).
 
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zebbedee

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Ah, so it's complicated.

I'm thinking of the specific example where you haven't travelled but are merely in a station, there is no compulsory ticket areas and barriers have been erected whilst you have been there. Is there a requirement to present a ticket upon request as in 'Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid...', does that 'by' mean the carried by or the close to by. Thinking specifically york station here on race days. Or is there other legislation though which you could be forced to have or purchase a ticket in that scenario?

Cheers for the reply by the way.
 

yorkie

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Ah, so something happened at York station on Thursday ;) You can PM me more information if you like.

I was boarding a Grand Central service, so I was not required to show a ticket. I simply said "I'm getting the Grand Central", half-expecting an argument, but I was pleasantly surprised that they correctly allowed me through.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I'm happy to dedicate some significant time answering interesting questions on here such as the definition of "passenger" which might assist someone, somewhere. Time which might other wise have been allocated to other useful activities
specifically york station here on race days.
but now I suspect my time has been wasted, due to you asking the wrong question.
Sorry, but you're on your own now.
 

zebbedee

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Sorry, but you're on your own now.
I wouldn't think it's the wrong question, I was going through the station and showed my ticket, as I was going through the car park a policeman claimed I hadn't done, I asked under what legal bases I had to do so (I was ****ed at being stopped when I had already shown it) he quoted the 1889 act so I showed it, he then asked for my details, I asked 'am I obliged to give that information' he said he would arrest me because he suspected me of ticket evasion (claimed the ticket was worn and so possibly invalid) I refused (getting more ****ed by this point), the station staff said it was a valid ticket, he again asked for my details, I again asked if I was obliged, he said if I didn't he would arrest me on suspicion of ticket evasion (complaint now in with BTP, violation of PACE-no grounds for suspicion and hence abuse of power) so I gave them and went on my way. The question relates to York not having a compulsory ticket area then at which point to you become someone who is not ' a passenger by rail' and hence no demand for a ticket to be presented could be made.

Yeh temp barriers at the station on race days.
 
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John @ home

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The question relates to ... at which point to you become someone who is not ' a passenger by rail'
The point at which the journey is deemed to have ended.

I'm not aware of any definition of the end of a journey, but I suspect that the definition of a break of a journey would be considered in this context.
National Rail Conditions of Carriage

16. For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than to:
(i) join a train at another station, or
(ii) stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s staff.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf
This is clear that leaving a station is a necessary element of breaking a journey. In the past we have debated on this forum whether a passenger could enter a station car park or station hotel without being deemed to have broken their journey. The general opinion was that they could.

Similarly, it may well be that leaving a station is a necessary element of ending a journey and that a passenger who has arrived by train at York with a ticket to York could enter the station car park or the station hotel without being deemed to have ended their journey.
 

SussexMan

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...if you are in a rail station but have not travelled and do not intend to travel are you not a rail passenger etc.

zebbedee said:
I was going through the station and showed my ticket...

In your first post you talk about not travelling and in the other post you say you showed your ticket.

Am I the only person who is confused? What's the full story?
 

zebbedee

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The first was hypothetical, the second post was what happened but both would relate to when is a person not a passenger by railway. I hold a season ticket york-huddersfield, policman made accusations which were false and demonstrably so and I'd like to know if such an instance ever occured again, if he were (as I think he was) being asrsey I could legitimately refuse, with no consequences, to present a ticket.

I don't mind paying for my tickets other than the expense, I'm receiving a service I'll pay for it, I do mind being treated like a criminal on a whim.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The point at which the journey is deemed to have ended.

I'm not aware of any definition of the end of a journey, but I suspect that the definition of a break of a journey would be considered in this context.
This is clear that leaving a station is a necessary element of breaking a journey. In the past we have debated on this forum whether a passenger could enter a station car park or station hotel without being deemed to have broken their journey. The general opinion was that they could.

Similarly, it may well be that leaving a station is a necessary element of ending a journey and that a passenger who has arrived by train at York with a ticket to York could enter the station car park or the station hotel without being deemed to have ended their journey.
Cheers
 
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Hi, I'd like to ask the collective wisdom of this site if there is a statutory definition of 'rail passenger' as refered to in the various acts with regard to the railways or is it taken a obvious.

Eg, if you are in a rail station but have not travelled and do not intend to travel are you not a rail passenger etc.

Cheers

Literal terms.
A Passenger is a person on passage. It therefore follows that a rail passenger is a person on passage travelling by rail. I would suggest that a person on a railway station waiting for a train is a potential passenger, a person on a railway station having alighted from a train to change onto another train is a passenger as they are already a person on passage.
 
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