What influenced where BR scrapped its own locos?

[Ashley Hill]

Looking at the history of scrapping diesel locomotives especially in the 70/80s who decided what was scrapped where?
Using Swindon as an example class 08s, 13s, 25s, 27s 40s and many other classes were scrapped a long way from their own regions/depots. Was it cost effective to dispatch condemned locos hundreds of miles for scrap rather than cut them at their nearest works?

 

[Acathater]

Just guessing, but I presume certain sites were geared up to recover parts for reuse rather than simply scrap them.
I'm assuming that Swindon had the ability to dismantle, clean and test recycled components and were plugged into BR's spares distribution network whereas other sites may not

 

[Harpo]

I’d guess that with everything else being run down, Swindon had spare resources together with unused space. On a mid-80s visit to Swindon works I don’t recollect much more than freight wagon re-tyreing and a tinsmith making brand new metal tail lamps.

 

[Magdalia]

Component recovery was a key factor. This was euphemistically and gruesomely sometimes referred to as cannibalisation. Lots of components were no longer available, expensive to acquire, or had long lead times. If the loco class was still receiving classified overhauls then withdrawn locos of that class would usually be stripped of any useful components before breaking up, so it made sense to do that at the works that did those classified overhauls.

Swindon was different and was a BR policy decision at the time of the 1980-81 recession. With falling traffic and falling revenue one of the ways to cut costs was to place locos into store, especially those that were due classified overhauls. Swindon was chosen as the central location for this pool of stored locos, many of them "switched off" to save on classified overhaul costs. The idea was that stored locos could be overhauled and returned to traffic if and when traffic recovered, and some of them did return to traffic.

At the time Swindon still had the 4CEP refurbishment and classified repairs on shunters, plus a few unclassified jobs on main line locos as an overflow from other works, but it hadn't been doing classified overhauls on main line locos since 1973.

 

[Gloster]

I believe that another factor at Swindon was that the works had a reduced workload, possibly related to the withdrawal of the hydraulics, which meant that it had surplus staff. Presumably some, probably not many, could be kept occupied by cannibalising and scrapping locos until they retired or returned to the main works due to an upturn in work.

 

[Pigeon]

Yes. Basically the writing was on the wall for Swindon as soon as the hydraulics were gone (if not before), so it spent the last 10 years or so being run down and taking on a lot of scrapping of things to stave off the inevitable closure.

 

[Robin Edwards]

Adding to what's already been said, the need to dispose of diesel classes depended on resources available and any practicalities around component recovery and reuse.
For instance :
The Class 24s were spread between Swindon and Doncaster and generally speaking, Doncaster took the Scottish ones whilst Swindon took those from Midlands and North West. Locos stored at Basford, Crewe weren't scrapped at Crewe but went to Swindon and stored locos from Carlisle were moved down to Doncaster. I don't think many 24s were disposed of at Glasgow or Crewe?

The 26's and 27's were disposed at Glasgow where they worked, until later times where the class numbers were waning and Vic Berry was involved. One or two 27s were scrapped at Crewe, Swindon and Derby in 1980s, no component recovery needed by that time I assume.

Great Western hydraulics were all dealt with at Swindon bar a few Hymeks. Component recovery and reuse for these classes would only have been relevant to Swindon Works.

 

[D1537]

Of course, later on EWS set up the Component Recovery and Distribution Centre (CRDC) at Wigan. Given that there were so many locomotives going for scrap in the 80s and 90s though, it is unsurprising that many locations were used to dispose of them.

As an example, this is where Class 47s (which of course we mainly scrapped in the 90s and 00s) were disposed of

• Railway Works 49 (36 at Crewe, 13 at others)
• Other rail locations 91 (30 at the CRDC, 21 at Old Oak Common, 40 at various other TMDs etc)
• Scrapyards & recyclers 264 (CF Booths Rotherham 113, EMR/HNRC Kingsbury 46, MC Metals Glasgow 25, TJ Thomson Stockton 21, Vic Berry Leicester 20, others 39)

 

[Harvester]

Going a little further back to the 1960s, 15 withdrawn NER V2s with tenders were sent to Swindon in 1964. The tender frames were required for an order of snowploughs, and towing the locos and tenders to the works was the most convenient way to transport the latter. Once there the engines were all quickly scrapped, but some photos exist of them lined up in the scrapyard with all tenders noticeable absent.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

06s of course were scrapped at St Rollox. I have quite a few photos of them being cut up on the works. That was a logical place of course.

 

[Gloster]

06s of course were scrapped at St Rollox. I have quite a few photos of them being cut up on the works. That was a logical place of course.

Surprisingly, only three of the ones that lasted to became 06 and seven earlier ones went at BREL Glasgow. Plus one 06 at Polmadie and two at Dundee TMD.

Source: Butlin’s 2015 book.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Surprisingly, only three of the ones that lasted to became 06 and seven earlier ones went at BREL Glasgow. Plus one 06 at Polmadie and two at Dundee TMD.

Source: Butlin’s 2015 book.

I did not know that. Logical though - Polmadie is close to St Rollox and Dundee ain’t that far from Dunfermline Townhill.

 

[SargeNpton]

Great Western hydraulics were all dealt with at Swindon bar a few Hymeks. Component recovery and reuse for these classes would only have been relevant to Swindon Works.

A couple of Hymeks ended up at George Cohen's, just outside Kettering. See photo.

 

[Gloster]

A couple of Hymeks ended up at George Cohen's, just outside Kettering. See photo.

Five went to Cohens and three went to Bird’s at Long Marston. Two went to Marple and Gillott at Attercliffe, one being one of the former RTC dead load locos. One ex-departmental ended up at T.J.Thompson at Stockton, having been at Laira for carriage heating.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks to those of you who've explained Swindon's rationale. What you've written, ties in with what I saw there spring 1985; and fills in a couple of gaps in my own understanding.


Two questions from me:

1) what influenced "scrap in-house versus sell for 3rd party disposal"? Class 25s and 27s scrapping included at Swindon Works and at Vic Berry's, Leicester. 33 021 and 33 055 ended life in MC Metals, Glasgow.

2) what influenced how long a BR disposal lingered intact? D818 "Glory" I appreciate was an outlier case; but 84 008 was still in Crewe Works' scrapline in summer 1986.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks to those of you who've explained Swindon's rationale. What you've written, ties in with what I saw there spring 1985; and fills in a couple of gaps in my own understanding.


Two questions from me:

1) what influenced "scrap in-house versus sell for 3rd party disposal"? Class 25s and 27s scrapping included at Swindon Works and at Vic Berry's, Leicester. 33 021 and 33 055 ended life in MC Metals, Glasgow.

2) what influenced how long a BR disposal lingered intact? D818 "Glory" I appreciate was an outlier case; but 84 008 was still in Crewe Works' scrapline in summer 1986.

I would think that there were a number of factors, but they possibly included:

- A greater pressure from the government to earn money from assets, scrap being an asset.
- Fewer works with fewer spare staff and less space to store redundant assets.
- Less requirement for parts that could be removed to keep other locos running as these had gone.

A personal opinion is that the 1980s’ government attitude of ‘private enterprise good, nationalised industry bad’ may well have seeped in and had an influence.

 

[Strathclyder]

Thanks to those of you who've explained Swindon's rationale. What you've written, ties in with what I saw there spring 1985; and fills in a couple of gaps in my own understanding.


Two questions from me:

1) what influenced "scrap in-house versus sell for 3rd party disposal"? Class 25s and 27s scrapping included at Swindon Works and at Vic Berry's, Leicester. 33 021 and 33 055 ended life in MC Metals, Glasgow.

2) what influenced how long a BR disposal lingered intact? D818 "Glory" I appreciate was an outlier case; but 84 008 was still in Crewe Works' scrapline in summer 1986.

I would have assumed 84008 was being held for spares for sister loco 009 in the Research Division, but @Gloster's reasoning above makes quite a bit more sense upon reflection.

 

[Gloster]

I would have assumed 84008 was being held for spares for sister loco 009 in the Research Division, but @Gloster's reasoning above makes quite a bit more sense upon reflection.

I did consider that, but 84003 also went to Derby with 009, although it was never converted and went for scrap at the beginning of 1986. Perhaps 008 was being held as a spares bank for both: it would depend on when it was finally clear that 003 wasn’t going to be converted.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @Gloster and @Strathclyder - yes, I recall 84 003 being mentioned in railway press of the time, as intended spares donor for 84 009 as load bank ADB 968021.
Given the latter's conversion, I'd presume much of the 84's "1970s legacy" equipment was not required in it amyway.

OT, 84 008 was sandwiched between 81 001 and 81 015. A shame that the "AL doyen" was not saved.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Thanks to those of you who've explained Swindon's rationale. What you've written, ties in with what I saw there spring 1985; and fills in a couple of gaps in my own understanding.


Two questions from me:

1) what influenced "scrap in-house versus sell for 3rd party disposal"? Class 25s and 27s scrapping included at Swindon Works and at Vic Berry's, Leicester. 33 021 and 33 055 ended life in MC Metals, Glasgow.

2) what influenced how long a BR disposal lingered intact? D818 "Glory" I appreciate was an outlier case; but 84 008 was still in Crewe Works' scrapline in summer 1986.

The mid 1980’s saw a big change in disposal policy, all based around the changes happening at the BREL works. Quite apart from the closures, they were all being downsized as a result of the move to CEM (Cost Effective Maintenance) overhauls.

With the increase in withdrawals and now the capacity to undertake large scale scrapping of locos having been reduced, the large scale reversion to the private sector occurred. Of course, coaches had consistently been going to private sector scrapping locations for decades.

The demise of the regional CM&EE organisations caused a loss of focus on disposals. The BRB actually formed a working group to get it all back working again, prodding the Sectors into action. This group met regularly until the ROSCOs were setup. I was a member of this group as I had previous experience in loco and stock disposals. It was chaired by Tony Smale, the NSE Rolling Stock Manager.

In pre-sector, pre CEM days the CM&EE BRB would decide whether a loco would be scrapped at BREL or put out to tender (by Derby) for sale. The Regional Shopping Bureau would organise any move. Presumably, the CM&EE BRB and the BREL management would know what capacity existed at each works for this activity.

Locos tended to linger at main works if bits were going to be needed in future but sometimes until a few locos were collected, it wasn’t economic to set a gang on them. A good example of the former was steam engine 5815 which was withdrawn in 1961 but its boiler was still in stock as a spare. So the loco lingered at Swindon Works until the boiler was finally withdrawn and the still complete loco was then sold for scrap in 1964.

 

[Magdalia]

The mid 1980’s saw a big change in disposal policy, all based around the changes happening at the BREL works. Quite apart from the closures, they were all being downsized as a result of the move to CEM (Cost Effective Maintenance) overhauls.

Thanks for this helpful insight.

Would the switch to CEM have reduced/eliminated the need to recover spare parts from withdrawn locos before disposal?

 

[Taunton]

The Swindon scrapyard had a long history, it was originally laid out for the large amount of stock of all types withdrawn at the end of the Broad Gauge in 1892. Thereafter it had quite some further investment, with the installation of overhead powered electro-magnets to handle the scrap steel; the wiring for this can be seen in many photographs, right up to the diesel era.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Thanks for this helpful insight.

Would the switch to CEM have reduced/eliminated the need to recover spare parts from withdrawn locos before disposal?

It vastly reduced the need as the move to newer traction picked up speed at the same time as all the changes to the works overhaul regime. You could also set up a contract with a scrappie to recover certain materials if you needed to.