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What incentive is there to go by train?

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typefish

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I'd only go by rail if I'm specifically bashing or significantly more convenient to go via rail.

For example - if I want to do a day out in various cities in West Yorkshire (my friends often mock me), I'd do that by train as it's rather a pain to find parking in 5 different localities when you're going there for a couple of hours at a time - regardless of how fun driving the back roads from Huddersfield to some random place with intent whilst hiding from the hundreds of speed cameras around that neck of the woods sounds!

(Sometimes the train doesn't cut it, and I have to settle for the coach, gah!)

If I'm travelling with my friends, I'd go by car as it'd be considerably cheaper - a point that appears to have been raised consistently in this thread. Not really sure if reducing group fares would be the best way to go about it, as all it would do is just hike up the price for when I'm out on my own.

Oh, I'm a 26-30 railcard user
 
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al78

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I said the average, clearly there's going to be some who do manage it for a lot less than that to make that the average, however there's those for whom it's a lot more than that.

Also that's all costs, so insurance, VED, parking, fuel, etc.

Whist not everywhere is suitable to be cycled, that's more the fault of the infrastructure not being suitable. There's should be no reason why a duel carriageway couldn't have an off road cycle lane to allow cyclists to use it.

If a nasty primary main road puts people off cycling, it is worth looking at the map to see if there isn't a more pleasant alternative route. Some dual carriageways have quiet country lanes running approximately parallel, sometimes those lanes used to be the old road before the sual carriageway was constructed. Dorking to Horsham is a good example.

The problem with off road cycle lanes is they are built very badly most of the time, far too narrow which puts cyclists in conflict with pedestrians. They are not designed for cyclists, they are designed for motorists to get the pesky cyclists out of their way. The most recent cycle lane to be built near me is a good 4m wide and it is great to cycle on, because I can ring the bell to alert a pedestrian ahead and there is plenty of space to pass.
 

Iskra

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For me the incentives are;

- Ability to get drunk
- Avoiding stressful driving in congested city centres
- Avoiding city centre parking charges
- Can relax/enjoy the view/work/read/sleep etc
- Railway enthusiasm
- Sometimes the price can be good.

It is journey dependent and the quality of my journeys vary massively and even as an enthusiast there is no novelty value to constantly wedged 185's, or leaky Northern stock in January with barely any legroom for long circuitous journeys.
 

Irascible

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Because I don't have to drive. I find driving around lesser country A-roads is fun, driving long distance on a motorway is not and certainly driving around a major city isn't much fun. I could take the coach instead - journey times are a minor consideration for me so I'll go via a route I find more comfortable even if it's an hour slower - but for some reason I can't get on with coach travel. Watching the world go by from a train is a little different to the view from a road vehicle too, that's also a minor thing but enough that it'll factor in occasionally.
 

The Ham

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Most people have a car and so the cost comparison should be to compare the rail fare to the tangible cost of driving, which for most will be the fuel and parking (few places have congestion charging). If you own a car, the ownership costs of tax, insurance, MOT and servicing have to be paid no matter how little or often you drive. Delays aren't a tangible cost unless the extra time taken to complete a journey has directly denied you the ability to earn money (how would you honestly have used the time if you weren't delayed?).

For me, to visit family, rail fare around £100 now that advance tickets are virtually unobtainable. Driving, £40 in petrol, and whilst up there, I have the ability to visit a national park, hike up and down a big hill, and get back in time for an evening meal.

Many people use rail because despite its faults, it is the most practical (or only feasible) way to make their journey. I use trains to reduce driving mileage and/or when cycling the distance would render me heavily fatigued, because I try to live more ecologically responsibly. I was fortunate two Sundays ago that bike and train from Horsham to Pyecombe was quicker than cycling the full distance (helped by the train home turning up at Hassocks at the exact time I arrived at the station and short connection times).

It does matter how few miles you travel and/or how much your car costs to run each year.

If it's costing you £3,000/year and you're doing 1,000 miles than it would be cheaper to use a taxi!

However, given that if you've got a car then your do more miles in it then you need to then it could be that the cut off is much higher. For example, those who suggest that they need a car for a supermarket trip (and assuming that they don't want to use internet shopping), for many it's entirely possible to walk/use a bus to the shops and then get a taxi home. In doing so reducing by half the miles traveled.

Likewise a child with swimming lessons after school where you couldn't walk the distance in the time you could walk to school, taxi to the lessons and then walk home. Again reducing the distance traveled.

That's in addition to those trips where the distance is short and the car is used when there's no need to.

That's not just me saying that, but is backed up by data. 1/5 of all trips in London by car are less than 2 miles in length. Now not all of those would be suitable to be undertaken by walking/cycling however the majority probably could be, even if that was one way walking.

Things like internet shopping do require more planning than going to a shop, however they can been done in a lunch break or on a train for delivery at a convenient time. Which can mean that you have more time for other things.

Early on in the internet shopping lifecycle I met a farmer who realised that by getting their shipping delivered that it saved them about 2 hours of their time. Now for them it was a 40 minute trip each way to go to the supermarket, which made a big difference to their time saving calculation, however even fairly small distances can start to add up, especially over a year.

Whilst the first few times it can take a long time to fill your online cart, most people have the same things week after week, so it speeds up after a while.

However it's a task that can be done it what would otherwise be dead time and can be done in small blocks of time too. For instance of you the app on your phone you can add 5-6 owns whilst cooking dinner in the same way as you'd add then to your shopping list.

Likewise a DIY project, unless you run out of the right thing part way through our need just a few little bits, then it's probably easier to get the stuff delivered to you rather than trying to play car Jenga with the various bits. As to running out of bits, the spread of Screwfix has resulted in them covering some fairly small locations, however there's often independent shops who can also mean that for many they're not that far from extra parts of they need them.
 

The Ham

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If a nasty primary main road puts people off cycling, it is worth looking at the map to see if there isn't a more pleasant alternative route. Some dual carriageways have quiet country lanes running approximately parallel, sometimes those lanes used to be the old road before the sual carriageway was constructed. Dorking to Horsham is a good example.

The problem with off road cycle lanes is they are built very badly most of the time, far too narrow which puts cyclists in conflict with pedestrians. They are not designed for cyclists, they are designed for motorists to get the pesky cyclists out of their way. The most recent cycle lane to be built near me is a good 4m wide and it is great to cycle on, because I can ring the bell to alert a pedestrian ahead and there is plenty of space to pass.

Indeed, cycle lanes are often tacked on with little consideration as to the flows likely to use them.

However a 3m shared route where there's few of either is fine, yet it may well be that within an urban area that 5m wide routes are required due to the volume of people wishing to use them.

Of course it could be that on a dual carriageway that the provision is a 2.5m advisory cycle lane on the left hand lane, in doing so any car wishing to overtake a cyclist would need to move across totally out of the nearside lane. In light traffic conditions it may result in none of the traffic using the nearside lane, which may upset those wishing to overtake slower traffic, however it would encourage more cycling without altering the road overly much.
 

yorkie

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Any more contributions on the theme of what incentive is there to go by train?
 

squizzler

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Any more contributions on the theme of what incentive is there to go by train?
Yeah, simply put, trains are awesome! It is always a thrill to sit cocooned in several hundreds of tonnes of metal, gliding smoothly along at 125mph with a drink and a snack in hand, idly gazing over the passing villages and farms. Given the choice, I wouldn't travel any other way.
 

Horizon22

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For commuting it is often the best of the bad options. When people complain about rail, and you have the argument "okay then why not drive" a whole host of other problems arise. You therefore are taking the best option. Some commuting can be very quick as well.

As for leisure travel that's very different and has a number of benefits.
 

DB

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Yeah, simply put, trains are awesome! It is always a thrill to sit cocooned in several hundreds of tonnes of metal, gliding smoothly along at 125mph with a drink and a snack in hand, idly gazing over the passing villages and farms. Given the choice, I wouldn't travel any other way.

That situation is not the reality for many though!
 

The Ham

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That situation is not the reality for many though!

Even when the top speed is 75mph that's still going faster than you should be in a car (including that when stopping using highway code breaking distances from 80mph you'd still be going at 41mph when a car doing 70mph would have stopped) and faster than most driving that most people do.
 

DB

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Even when the top speed is 75mph that's still going faster than you should be in a car (including that when stopping using highway code breaking distances from 80mph you'd still be going at 41mph when a car doing 70mph would have stopped) and faster than most driving that most people do.

That rather depends on how often the train stops, and how long for!

My point was more general - that the reality of train travel for many is not what is described: it's packed commuter trains where if you are lucky you get an ironing-board seat, but may well end up standing. Even on a long-distance train, you are inceasingly likely to have hard, uncomfortable seats and no buffet, so any catering is dependant on whehter / when the trolley puts in an appearance.
 

Pugwash

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That rather depends on how often the train stops, and how long for!

My point was more general - that the reality of train travel for many is not what is described: it's packed commuter trains where if you are lucky you get an ironing-board seat, but may well end up standing. Even on a long-distance train, you are inceasingly likely to have hard, uncomfortable seats and no buffet, so any catering is dependant on whehter / when the trolley puts in an appearance.

Add to that list - expensive.
 

infobleep

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It depends on your priorities.

For me it's about comfort and the ability to not have to constantly focus on what's going on around you.

Driving down to Brighton or Margate is quicker (train takes twice the time!) and fuel costs are roughly similar (maybe slightly less) but sitting in the car park at Clacket Lane chugging tea as you try not to fall asleep from your walk and drive both ways makes you realise how helpful it is to just be able to get on the train and have a nap or just look out the window and listen to music etc.

Similarly, I can take my laptop and get some work done (a fair chunk of my last lab report was written between London and Taunton).

Simply, driving is tiring and I'd rather take the train when I can, even if it takes longer.
I've tried to work on the train but alas to do much I need a good Internet connection and it just isn't there.

For security reasons we can't enable offline working for Google's G Suite applications, so I can only write documents so long as I have an Internet connection. I can read e-mails on my phone at least but that's about it. Hence trying to work by train isn't as productive as it could be.

So that would be a disincentive to take the train over the car, if the car is faster. However in the morning rush hour you'd get stuck in traffic and then have to park somewhere.

In my case, I love train travel and the ability to do stuff, even if it's not work, whilst travelling. No need to figure out where best to park ones car. Just hop on board and go - assuming you have a season ticket between destinations. Alas now I don't.

As an aside, Google are finally going to implement the ability for offline working to be locked down to individual devices, rather than just by user account. Something they have talked about for a number of years but nothing seems to ever have happened, until now that is. Once they roll this out then I can use offline working as it can be locked down to just a work device.

Alad by the time it finally comes in I won't be travelling as often. Still when I do travel I'll probably travel off peak to save on train costs and thus work whilst I travel.

There are occasions when I might think if only I drove, the journey could be done in half the time or I could get home the same night. However that isn't enough if an incentive to make me wish to own a car.
 

miami

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I've tried to work on the train but alas to do much I need a good Internet connection and it just isn't there.

Continuous 4g/5g mobile coverage for the entire track would be an improvement

Power sockets at every seat would be an improvement

Decent legroom on certain terrible trains (Pendolinos) would be an improvement, as would getting rid of the stink when you board

But if I'm honest, none of that really flips the decision between car and train for me.
 
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Jamesrob637

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Fuel prices are starting to creep up again so trains could be cheaper on some journeys in a few months.
 

route101

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Im looking at going on a staycation in SW England, fares are very dear from Scotland. Even advances .
 

yorkie

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Im looking at going on a staycation in SW England, fares are very dear from Scotland. Even advances .
If you require further assistance with this, create a thread in the fare advice section, but do check out a split ticketing site first (some have seat pickers) and check "value" mode, and also it may be worth seeing if it's cheaper via London. It may be that Advance fares are not yet available. There are no cheap long distance fares at XC that I can see at the current time.

Train companies such as XC are carting a lot of fresh air at the moment, but they appear to want to keep it that way, hence their high fares. On the plus side, if you do use XC there is a good chance there will be no-one sat anywhere near you. I guess this business model currently works for XC as the Government will foot the bill.
 

BigCj34

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Continuous 4g/5g mobile coverage for the entire track would be an improvement

Power sockets at every seat would be an improvement

Decent legroom on certain terrible trains (Pendolinos) would be an improvement, as would getting rid of the stink when you board

But if I'm honest, none of that really flips the decision between car and train for me.
I don't know how tall you are but I have no complaints about Pendolino legroom and I am 6'1"! Northern Sprinters are the worst culprits, about as bad as a Ryanair seat before they introduced the slim seats.
 

miami

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Crosscountry charge a fortune, run full trains, but don't seem to make much of a profit (1 or 2% of revenue).

Is there any realistic way for the cost of providing a journey to become massively cheaper? Or should rail continue to optimise for those that have no choice (say students or commuters into busy cities), rather than trying to get a family of 4 to use rail for a week away at the seaside?
 

Jamesrob637

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Crosscountry charge a fortune, run full trains, but don't seem to make much of a profit (1 or 2% of revenue).

Is there any realistic way for the cost of providing a journey to become massively cheaper? Or should rail continue to optimise for those that have no choice (say students or commuters into busy cities), rather than trying to get a family of 4 to use rail for a week away at the seaside?

XC are an interesting case at the moment: it's like the very early days of the Voyagers once again. Long trains (they could double up most services) but at a modest frequency. People forget that they were introduced just before Operation Princess in 03/04, so you (briefly) had the luxury of even longer trains than the 47s/Mk2s and HSTs under the old timetable.
 

BigCj34

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Crosscountry charge a fortune, run full trains, but don't seem to make much of a profit (1 or 2% of revenue).

Is there any realistic way for the cost of providing a journey to become massively cheaper? Or should rail continue to optimise for those that have no choice (say students or commuters into busy cities), rather than trying to get a family of 4 to use rail for a week away at the seaside?
From an environmental perspective, is a family of four travelling by a diesel train any better for emissions than a fully loaded car from the last decade?
 

infobleep

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From an environmental perspective, is a family of four travelling by a diesel train any better for emissions than a fully loaded car from the last decade?
But are mutiple families of 4 travelling by a single diesel train better for emissions than mutiple fully loaded cars from the last decade?
 

Energy

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From an environmental perspective, is a family of four travelling by a diesel train any better for emissions than a fully loaded car from the last decade?
But are mutiple families of 4 travelling by a single diesel train better for emissions than mutiple fully loaded cars from the last decade?
Really depends on the train, some, such as the class 185s, are known to take a lot of fuel.
 

Bald Rick

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But are mutiple families of 4 travelling by a single diesel train better for emissions than mutiple fully loaded cars from the last decade?

Depends on the car, and the train. But 50 families of four in, say, 50 diesel decade old VW Golfs would almost certainly produce fewer pollutants and less CO2 than a fully loaded 4 car Voyager on a similar Journey.
 

DerekC

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Depends on the car, and the train. But 50 families of four in, say, 50 diesel decade old VW Golfs would almost certainly produce fewer pollutants and less CO2 than a fully loaded 4 car Voyager on a similar Journey.


I can't find figures for a Voyager but the ATOC Energy Report from 2007 gives a figure of 0.0145 litres per seat kilometre for a 4-car Meridian. My 5-year old Golf SV does about 55 mpg on a long run 4-up, which works out at 0.128 litres per seat kilometre - so a difference of about 15% in diesel consumption and therefore CO2 emissions. (I don't have figures for NOx etc) The problem is, of course, that most Golfs don't run 4-up and most Meridians don't run full. (Interestingly the 9-car Meridian did 23% better, which was put down to stopping pattern).
 

mmh

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Depends on the car, and the train. But 50 families of four in, say, 50 diesel decade old VW Golfs would almost certainly produce fewer pollutants and less CO2 than a fully loaded 4 car Voyager on a similar Journey.

I think you could have chosen a better car to be almost certain of its emissions than a decade old Volkswagen!
 
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