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What if: the Brexit referendum had not been held?

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nw1

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I'm not sure if we need a sub-forum for this: political "what if" questions.

I often wonder what might have happened if David Cameron had not decided to hold the Brexit referendum. I am not an expert on these matters, but I'm suggesting my guess on events below, which may or may not have been correct.

I do wonder whether Cameron actually needed to suggest the referendum as a way of obtaining a majority. From what I can see the main factor behind the Tory majority in 2015 was the collapse of the Lib Dem vote on the back of the tuition fees issue, which meant many people in 2010 Lib Dem seats switched their vote elsewhere, allowing large numbers of seats to go Tory. This was particularly the case in South West England and to me, seemed to be the major factor in allowing Cameron to do as well as he did. This would, in my opinion, have happened without the referendum in the manifesto. Plus, Ed Miliband was seen (wrongly, IMO) as a weak leader and this would still have been the case without the referendum.

So in this alternate universe, Cameron would, IMO, still have won, perhaps with a wafer-thin majority of only 5 or so. The politics of the 12 months following the election would have been much the same: a reaction on the left against Cameron's win, anti-austerity marches, and Corbyn becoming Labour leader.

The rest of Cameron's second term would, however, without the referendum, have been more stable. The country would be strongly divided on anti-austerity lines, but with the economy presumably recovering, there would be less austerity and perhaps attitudes to Cameron might have softened a little. Nonetheless I'd have expected to see the Tories and Labour neck-and-neck in the polls. Cameron would have completed 10 years as PM and thus have done better, personally, by not holding the referendum.

What then happened for a theoretical 2020 election would have been interesting. I remember Cameron saying he would not seek a third term, thus there would be a Tory leadership contest. The two most obvious candidates would seem to be Osborne, as Cameron's sidekick and Chancellor, plus a certain A.B. de Pfeffel Johnson.

I suspect the result of the 2020 election would have depended on which of the two individuals would have won. Had Osborne won there would have been a real ideological battle in the election - Osborne vs. Corbyn - and with Osborne less popular than Cameron and more directly blamed for austerity, who knows what might have happened? This would probably have been a 2017 election like scenario where Corbyn could, perhaps, have ended up PM.

However I think it's more likely that the Tory membership would have seen Johnson as the one of the two with more "star quality" and thus he would have been elected as Tory leader. Thus we end up with the 2020 election being very like the actual 2019 election - Johnson vs Corbyn. I suspect the Brexit question's time will have passed, with the country on a better economic footing and less reason for the EU to be a scapegoat for people's problems - and Johnson would have stood on a populist Tory platform, but without the question of leaving the EU.

Thus I suspect the result of this 2020 election would have been much the same as the actual 2019 election, with a clear majority for Johnson. But without Brexit he would have been less unpopular with some of us - though the left would still not be keen on him. Perhaps though the left, in this alternate scenario, would see him as an improvement on Cameron and Osborne?

In this alternate reality there is no Covid to complicate things, and so without Partygate, and without such a strong backlash against him from pro-EU people, I suspect he would have lasted a bit longer than he actually did. Nonetheless at some point people would have worn thin of his bluster and arrogance, he'd have eventually slipped up somehow, and we'd currently, right now, be in a situation where Johnson's personal polls would be falling fast, and with a May 2025 election around 18 months away, the Tory party would in the coming months be facing the decision whether to keep him on or not. So not a million miles away from what actually happened, but crucially, minus Brexit. But perhaps with the Tories not lurching so far to the right and without the elimination of many of the moderates, there would be someone else waiting in the wings who might still rescue them for 2025. Theresa May, perhaps? She would perhaps be a refreshing change for many after four years of Boris bluster.

The notional 2025 election would thus, perhaps, be looking like a defeat for the Tories on balance, but perhaps they would still have a chance. So perhaps the referendum was bad, in the long run, for many of the players: Cameron, Boris and the Tory party itself.

As I said I am no expert, this is pure guesswork.

Alternate opinions now welcome!
 
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birchesgreen

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We'd still be going on about it all the time and have anger and bitterness throughout state and society, but would probably be a bit better off.
 

nw1

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We'd still be going on about it all the time and have anger and bitterness throughout state and society, but would probably be a bit better off.

Or would we? Perhaps with economically better times in the later 2010s the fashion for wanting to leave the EU would have passed. To me it seems it had its moment, and that moment was on the back of austerity in the mid-2010s.
 

nlogax

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We'd still be going on about it all the time and have anger and bitterness throughout state and society, but would probably be a bit better off

No doubt about that. Though as a country we seem utterly determined to shoot ourselves in both feet so I have no doubt a referendum would have happened eventually if not in 2016.
 

birchesgreen

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Or would we? Perhaps with economically better times in the later 2010s the fashion for wanting to leave the EU would have passed. To me it seems it had its moment, and that moment was on the back of austerity in the mid-2010s.
Would we? lol

All my life i've heard people banging on about wanting to leave "Europe", about how "Europe" ruins everything, stops us going what we want, holds us back et cetera.

I find the idea that would somehow change hilarious.
 

GS250

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Let's be fair the EU referendum was primarily about unlimited migration from the EU. The fact that the powers that be were so utterly incompetent at estimating numbers didn't help either. Or maybe they knew fully well how many would come and the house price raises and wage stagnation it would cause. Good for GDP figures of course.

However if the referendum had not of taken place then I think there would have been some obvious outcomes.

1) UKIP would have grown in size but may still have struggled to get actual MPs elected.

2) Cameron would not have got a majority in 2015. The con/lib government would have carried on.

3) Quite a few working EU migrants were starting to go home before the brexit vote. I think this trend would have carried on as they realised the UK was not the land of milk and honey if you were actually working. Wages were starting to rise in places like Poland of which you could now argue is a more attractive place to live than the UK.

4) There would have been one less flag for the virtuous to display on their facebook, Tinder etc profiles.
 

birchesgreen

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Yes you wouldn't have had all those folks who have to plaster the Union Flag over their profiles.
 

jon0844

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It'd simply mean that instead of blaming all our woes on Brexit, we'd still be blaming them on the EU ....

That's surely the same thing? It's the nasty EU stopping us doing things now we've left!

Personally, had there been no referendum then I am sure subsequent elections would have proved Farage and others to be an irrelevance, and people would have continued to have the odd rant about the EU banning old hoovers and light bulbs, a few jokes about bananas, someone on a market stall being upset that they can't only advertise imperial measurements (even though most people have been taught the metric system for decades) and so on.

Most anger would have been targeted towards OUR Government, which is after all the main cause of all our current problems.
 

75A

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That's surely the same thing? It's the nasty EU stopping us doing things now we've left!

Personally, had there been no referendum then I am sure subsequent elections would have proved Farage and others to be an irrelevance, and people would have continued to have the odd rant about the EU banning old hoovers and light bulbs, a few jokes about bananas, someone on a market stall being upset that they can't only advertise imperial measurements (even though most people have been taught the metric system for decades) and so on.

Most anger would have been targeted towards OUR Government, which is after all the main cause of all our current problems.
Couldn't agree more.
 

SargeNpton

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Let's be fair the EU referendum was primarily about unlimited migration from the EU. The fact that the powers that be were so utterly incompetent at estimating numbers didn't help either. Or maybe they knew fully well how many would come and the house price raises and wage stagnation it would cause. Good for GDP figures of course.

However if the referendum had not of taken place then I think there would have been some obvious outcomes.

1) UKIP would have grown in size but may still have struggled to get actual MPs elected.

2) Cameron would not have got a majority in 2015. The con/lib government would have carried on.

3) Quite a few working EU migrants were starting to go home before the brexit vote. I think this trend would have carried on as they realised the UK was not the land of milk and honey if you were actually working. Wages were starting to rise in places like Poland of which you could now argue is a more attractive place to live than the UK.

4) There would have been one less flag for the virtuous to display on their facebook, Tinder etc profiles.
Regarding point 1, UKIP may have struggled to get MPs elected, but at the time it was increasingly being seen as attracting those who would normally be Conservative voters. That could split the Conservative vote in marginal constituencies and allow in a Labour or LibDem candidate.

That, plus the increasingly fractious pro/anti Europe division divisions within the party, was probably what forced Cameron's hand; with him hoping that the pro vote would prevail and so shutting up the anti-Europe factions.
 

8A Rail

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Most anger would have been targeted towards OUR Government, which is after all the main cause of all our current problems.
They are the main cause of Brexit too and you are saying 'would have been', that anger (and especially lies and incompetence too) is still there today, therefore nothing has changed. Our problems will not change with a different government, they will just change to something else.
 

GS250

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Most anger would have been targeted towards OUR Government, which is after all the main cause of all our current problems.

I think this is a fair enough point. One of my reasons for voting to leave was to actually ensure that the buck stops with our government. At least now, they cannot blame the EU for any directives. So maybe we should be looking a bit closer to home.

However, how much power do governments actually have these days? Are these powers slowly being lost to the technocracy, oligarchy etc or has this always been the case?

The EU was possibly the fall guy for many of Britain's problems. However...many of Britain's problems are also prevalent in EU countries too.
 

nw1

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Sorry to interject - as the starter of the thread I'm particularly interested in what people think about the electoral performance of the parties post-2015, how long Cameron would have lasted, who would be PM after him, who would win a theoretical 2020 election, who would be party leaders, etc.

It wasn't so much supposed to be a thread about the pros(?) and cons of Brexit! ;)
 

matt

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We have already got an existing brexit thread
 
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