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What if railways were never privatised ?

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YourMum666

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What would the state of the railways be had nationalisation never ended in the 1990s, what infrastuctural developments were halted or not carried out due to privatisation, and what rolling stock would be on the railways, and finally would the rail be in a better state, would projects like hs1/hs2 and the rail electrification programme been done any better?
 
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JamesT

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I think fares would be cheaper and easier to understand.
Why would they be? Our current fare system is essentially BR from 1994 with above-inflation increases driven by government. Why would trains being run in-house make government policy any different?
 

Pinza-C55

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Why would they be? Our current fare system is essentially BR from 1994 with above-inflation increases driven by government. Why would trains being run in-house make government policy any different?

Well admittedly BR was before the Internet but I now basically have to search through multiple apps to find the cheapest fare. British Rail didn't make a profit but the current shambolic mess of mostly foreign owned companies does have to make a profit. Also of course in BR days tickets weren't company specific so if my train was cancelled I just hopped on the next available service.
 

Matt P

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I think the question is really not what if privatisation hadnt happened but what if the privatisation that the UK undertook hadn't happened.

It is reasonable to conclude that some form of privatisation would have happened but not necessarily the particular model the UK adopted. The reason for saying that is one only has to look at developments in a number of EU countries to find that privatisation of some kind is relatively widespread.

One potential alternative is that BR wasnt broken up and abolished. The decision to do so was largely political. It would have been entirely possible to retain BR and still have some private sector involvement in rail.

Competitive tendering of regional services has taken place in a number of EU countries for some time. It would have been perfectly possible to have kept BR together, owning infrastructure and also retaining ownership over its business sectors. However Regional Railways and Network Southeast could have evolved into commissioners/buyers of rail services rather than operators.

Intercity and Railfreight could have been established as limited companies wholly or partly owned by BR and operate on an entirely commercial basis. Open access operators could also have been permitted to compete with Intercity or Railfreight.

The above may mean rolling stock procurement would have been differently. There would potentially have been fewer different classes of new rolling stock but larger orders of some classes.
 

Intercity110

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'siemens' networkers would be slowly rolling out, and further sectorization could've meant that regional railways would be a thin brand like british rail was, and PTE's or ''network north west' style things would've taken it over.
 

A0

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Well admittedly BR was before the Internet but I now basically have to search through multiple apps to find the cheapest fare. British Rail didn't make a profit but the current shambolic mess of mostly foreign owned companies does have to make a profit. Also of course in BR days tickets weren't company specific so if my train was cancelled I just hopped on the next available service.

All the internet has done is expose the information that was previously only visible to ticket office staff or travel agents - and the free market means you have multiple apps offering the same basic service.

The vast majority of tickets on sale now aren't "company specific" either - and in BR days there were other restrictions e.g. pick up / set down only on Inter City services at places like Watford or Stevenage - now that's simply handled by saying Not LNER / Not Avanti.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I think the question is really not what if privatisation hadnt happened but what if the privatisation that the UK undertook hadn't happened.

It is reasonable to conclude that some form of privatisation would have happened but not necessarily the particular model the UK adopted. The reason for saying that is one only has to look at developments in a number of EU countries to find that privatisation of some kind is relatively widespread.

One potential alternative is that BR wasnt broken up and abolished. The decision to do so was largely political. It would have been entirely possible to retain BR and still have some private sector involvement in rail.

Competitive tendering of regional services has taken place in a number of EU countries for some time. It would have been perfectly possible to have kept BR together, owning infrastructure and also retaining ownership over its business sectors. However Regional Railways and Network Southeast could have evolved into commissioners/buyers of rail services rather than operators.

Intercity and Railfreight could have been established as limited companies wholly or partly owned by BR and operate on an entirely commercial basis. Open access operators could also have been permitted to compete with Intercity or Railfreight.

The above may mean rolling stock procurement would have been differently. There would potentially have been fewer different classes of new rolling stock but larger orders of some classes.
This is a good post on the subject. One thing that needs to be remembered is that some sort of opening up of the railway sector would have been mandated by the European Union, and this would have involved the dreaded separation of infrastructure and operations that we got with our form of privatisation. Of course some EU member states have dragged their heels on this front, or reduced it to a paperwork exercise with no practical impact (cough cough France).
 

Senex

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This is a good post on the subject. One thing that needs to be remembered is that some sort of opening up of the railway sector would have been mandated by the European Union, and this would have involved the dreaded separation of infrastructure and operations that we got with our form of privatisation. Of course some EU member states have dragged their heels on this front, or reduced it to a paperwork exercise with no practical impact (cough cough France).
Even if we had wished to follow EU Directives to the letter when others didn't (as British civil servants have so often been accused of), our government went far beyond what was required. It's worth bearing in mind what EU 91/440 said [my bold]:

Article 1

The aim of this Directive is to facilitate the adaptation of the Community railways to the needs of the Single Market and to increase their efficiency;
  • by ensuring the management independence of railway undertakings;
  • by separating the management of railway operation and infrastructure from the provision of railway transport services, separation of accounts being compulsory and organizational or institutional separation being optional,
  • by improving the financial structure of undertakings,
  • by ensuring access to the networks of Member states for international groupings of railway undertakings and for railway undertakings engaged in the international combined transport of goods.
(OJEC 24.8.1991 L 237/25)

When did British Railways ever have full management independence, and how far has that ever existed under privatisation?
 

Hadders

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I think fares would be cheaper and easier to understand.
I doubt it. While TOC only fares are not ideal in certain situations they wouldn't exist at all under BR.

Again, fares regulation is not ideal but it does at least limit the increase that can be applied to regulated fares. No such regulation existed under BR and it was common for them to simply put the fares up to price people off the railway.
 

dk1

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Us drivers would be on a far lower rate of pay. Privatisation was one of the best things to happen to our grade.
 

WAB

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Us drivers would be on a far lower rate of pay. Privatisation was one of the best things to happen to our grade.
Something which is not universally appreciated on other parts of the railway :lol:
 

deltic

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It is likely freight operations would have been sold off and operated as today. More regional services may have gone out to tender on a concession basis as per London Overground. Staff especially drivers would be paid a lot less. More of the network would probably have been electrified and we may have had more open access operators.
 

Hadders

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Us drivers would be on a far lower rate of pay. Privatisation was one of the best things to happen to our grade.
Quite bizarre really as the unions want it all nationalised. You’d have thought they’d want more fragmentation to push up wages for their members….
 

dk1

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Quite bizarre really as the unions want it all nationalised. You’d have thought they’d want more fragmentation to push up wages for their members….
Be careful what you wish for. I've never understood that union stance. Privatisation created competition which boosted driver salaries right across the UK.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Something which is not universally appreciated on other parts of the railway :lol:

You'll always get that. Their opinions tend to change once they get into the grade ;)
 

Pinza-C55

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I doubt it. While TOC only fares are not ideal in certain situations they wouldn't exist at all under BR.

Again, fares regulation is not ideal but it does at least limit the increase that can be applied to regulated fares. No such regulation existed under BR and it was common for them to simply put the fares up to price people off the railway.

I lived in the BR era and also worked for them. I remember fares as cheap and I don't remember them putting up fares "to price people off the railway". At 18 years old I could afford to buy a cheap day return to London and travel there and back on an overnight train. Even if overnight trains still existed the price of a return to London bought at the ticket office would be horrendous.
 

dk1

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BR was renowned for pricing people off. The company line was to charge the passengers for whatever the market would bear. A classic was the Peterborough to Kings Cross route in the late 80s. It became too popular and Intercity couldn’t accommodate it all & so you did just that.
 

Ken H

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BR was renowned for pricing people off. The company line was to charge the passengers for whatever the market would bear. A classic was the Peterborough to Kings Cross route in the late 80s. It became too popular and Intercity couldn’t accommodate it all & so you did just that.
There were intercity only fares that cost more to drive people onto the slower NSE Emus.

But i think with no privatisation we would have seen far less investment. Procuring trains by leasing and letting Network Rail borrow on its 'credit card' took rail borrowing off the government balance sheet. So perhaps today the Mk3's would be on cross country and the Mk4's on trans pennine hauled by tarted up cl47's.
Some of us remember the goverment only allowing BR to only buy small tranches of HSTs. And sprinters were only authorised on the basis of replacing 3 modernisation DMU vehicles with 2 sprinter vehicles. Which is why most cl 15x are 2 car.
 

dk1

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There were intercity only fares that cost more to drive people onto the slower NSE Emus.

But i think with no privatisation we would have seen far less investment. Procuring trains by leasing and letting Network Rail borrow on its 'credit card' took rail borrowing off the government balance sheet. So perhaps today the Mk3's would be on cross country and the Mk4's on trans pennine hauled by tarted up cl47's.
Some of us remember the goverment only allowing BR to only buy small tranches of HSTs. And sprinters were only authorised on the basis of replacing 3 modernisation DMU vehicles with 2 sprinter vehicles. Which is why most cl 15x are 2 car.

Yes & the last tranche of 158s becoming 159s as an economy measure to cut the size of the fleet for the Provincial sector & at the same time give the answer to loco-hauled replacement for NSE. It was always robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 

domcoop7

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In the hypothetical situation where the Railways Act 1992 doesn't get passed, you'd still have the EU directives to get through, and the incoming Labour government in 1997, which was all in favour of PFI deals. We have a rough idea of how they may have handled British Rail, because in our timeline, they had control of London Regional Transport (as TfL was then). They introduced the Public Private Partnership, or PPP, which was inherited by TfL but the process started by the government directly before TfL was set up.

Ownership of stations and track was passed to "Infraco JNP" and "Infraco SSL", sold to Tube Lines and Metronet respectively. Operation of the network itself remained with TfL, but the track stations - and uniquely the individual trains themselves - were owned by the Infracos. They swallowed billions of pounds and ended up getting taken in house, just as their mainline cousin Railtrack PLC had in 2002.

So we'd have definitely got some form of privatisation, and given they felt the need to break up the Underground network for competition purposes, you can infer they'd have done the same with BR. Possibly a Railtrack InterCity, a Railtrack NSE and a Railtrack Regional Railways? Each being sold on a 30 year PFI deal to a private consortium in return for crayonista improvements like moving block signalling, etc. They'd have gone bust and ended up getting taken in house.

I suspect on-rail competition would have been off the agenda, as it was heavily discouraged even under privatisation by the Labour Government in our time line as it was, as they saw competition as "wasteful" and abstractive of revenue. However, there was already pressure even in BR days for more competition with Stagecoach having made a foray into the ECML. With the requirements of separation under the EU directive, I would guess the most likely result would be the three business units becoming tendering organisations to private contractors. In other words, not far off what we have today, and not far off what Great British Railways will probably introduce.

Rolling stock could be owned by the infrastructure companies as on the London Underground. It would probably evolve into the ROSCO system we have. More Networkers and 158s rather than Electrostars. IEP is a government project, so something like that would have hapenned in a non-privatised timeline.

I'd think wages for drivers wouldn't be far off what we have now, because - as on LU - there'd have still been a Bob Crow and they'd have still been able to shut down the system, and the Labour government would have caved.

I don't think electrification or infrastructure improvements would have been as pronounced though. There'd be all sorts of promises made, but probably none come to fruition. Chiltern would be on the decline, and remaining services diverted to Paddington after which Marylebone would close. More government impetus to close expensive lines, single junctions, etc. Rather than the debate being "should we electrify Oxenholme to Windermere, and Wigan to Salford via Atherton", the debate would be "should we close Oxenholme to Windermere and put an 'Express High Quality Coach' and reroute Wigan to Salford via Chat Moss / Lostock or change it into a Parry People Mover run by the local authority"

I think fares would probably be the same as today, but with fewer special offers, advance tickets, etc. They'd probably have hived off rail networks in PTE areas to be self-contained and locally specified. That may have led to many of the PTE converting heavy rail to light rail or tram as many wanted to do anyway.

Yes, there would have been less profit going out to owning companies *. But that doesn't magically mean it all gets reinvested into the Railway. It just means the government doesn't have to spend as much subsidising the rail network, so they wouldn't. So taxpayer's money would have been saved.

(* in theory. Of course a lot of the profit that got leached from the railway came in under the Labour government with the 'Cap and Collar' franchise agreements, where the government messed up big time and got outwitted by the owning groups. Their record on PFI deals, including London Underground, Schools and the NHS leaves a lot to be desired, so it's quite easy to envisage that even if not privatised they'd have still messed it up and managed to lose billions anyway).
 

Bevan Price

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BR was renowned for pricing people off. The company line was to charge the passengers for whatever the market would bear. A classic was the Peterborough to Kings Cross route in the late 80s. It became too popular and Intercity couldn’t accommodate it all & so you did just that.
That was because the treasury effectively told them (or pressurised them) to price people off the railway when overcrowding was becoming a problem.
 

dk1

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That was because the treasury effectively told them (or pressurised them) to price people off the railway when overcrowding was becoming a problem.

We then had terrific quotes from certain senior managers like ‘we are a victim of our own success’ lol.
 
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