What if: more Standard Class 8 pacifics had been built?

[alexl92]

Hypothetical discussion: If more than just on BR Standard Class 8 Pacific had been built, what might they have been called? Given than the Britannias and Clans were all named, its safe to assume the Class 8s would have been named.

Were there any plans that included the names for more locomotives?

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably they would have replaced the Kings, Duchesses etc, so there would have been plenty of aristocratic names going spare. If for the ECML they would no doubt have found a new generation of racehorses.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Hypothetical discussion: If more than just on BR Standard Class 8 Pacific had been built, what might they have been called? Given than the Britannias and Clans were all named,..........

Ereeeereeeer! Ereeeeereer ! (or whatever the klaxon sound is!)

Failed. Go to Jail and do not pass go, and do not collect a set of Walschaerts valve gear.


Not all the Britannias were named (and I should know, as I am one. We were a close knit bunch, even if it might not appear so )

70047 remained nameless and tearful all her/his working life ........ rumour had it that he was to be named Lord Baden-Powell ....... but it never happened.

 

[84A]

Take it from one who handled class 8's on a daily basis "No more dirty Hands" would have been the most appropriate naming of the last one if ever they had progressed from 71000...........ex fireman...........

 

[edwin_m]

70047 remained nameless and tearful all her/his working life ........ rumour had it that he was to be named Lord Baden-Powell ....... but it never happened.

Somebody obviously wasn't prepared.

 

[Helvellyn]

Possibly as a starting point more Royal Dukedoms? Although I am sure someone will be able to tell me that some of these were carried by other steam locomotives at the time: -

• Duke of Kent (Prince Edward)
• Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip)
• Duke of Lancaster (The Queen)
• Duke of Cornwall (Prince Charles)
• Duke of Rothesay (Prince Charles)

 

[alexl92]

Ereeeereeeer! Ereeeeereer ! (or whatever the klaxon sound is!)

Failed. Go to Jail and do not pass go, and do not collect a set of Walschaerts valve gear.


Not all the Britannias were named (and I should know, as I am one. We were a close knit bunch, even if it might not appear so )

70047 remained nameless and tearful all her/his working life ........ rumour had it that he was to be named Lord Baden-Powell ....... but it never happened.

I stand corrected. MOST then!

Presumably they would have replaced the Kings, Duchesses etc, so there would have been plenty of aristocratic names going spare. If for the ECML they would no doubt have found a new generation of racehorses.

Possibly as a starting point more Royal Dukedoms? Although I am sure someone will be able to tell me that some of these were carried by other steam locomotives at the time: -

• Duke of Kent (Prince Edward)
• Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Philip)
• Duke of Lancaster (The Queen)
• Duke of Cornwall (Prince Charles)
• Duke of Rothesay (Prince Charles)

I thought along these lines if they were replacing the Duchesses they might aim for some Dukes to go in there. Duke of Edinburgh would work on the East Coast too.

As an aside, I do wonder why the new P2 wasn't named Duke of Rothesay, given that that is Prince Charles (the Prince of Wales)'s title in Scotland.

 

[AndrewE]

They would have been scrapped with the same indecent haste that all the other almost-new steam locos were scrapped.

The political imperative to address labour and coal shortages meant that logic was thrown out of the window.

 

[Bevan Price]

If steam had lasted for another 20-30 years, no more BR Class 8's would have been built unless/until they had found out why 71000 was such a flop in original condition. It was only when it was reconstructed for preservation that they took the time/trouble/expense to eliminate the faults and produce a good locomotive.

If they had solved the problems, it is likely that Class 8s would have been used to replace locos such as Jubilees, Royal Scots, Castles, etc. by higher power locos (on lines where heavy Pacifics were suitable)

The Eastern & Southern lines already had enough Pacifics to meet their requirements, and would probably have not needed any new large locos before about 1980 - 1985.

 

[Merthyr Imp]

Thompson A2/1 no. 60508 was Duke of Rothesay.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

IIRC 71000 was built as a direct replacement for the destroyed 46202 Princess Anne. However knowing how the political agendas of locomotive design departments operated, Riddles clearly was using this as an opportunity to demonstrate what would been his 'piece-de-resistance', the ultimate British express passenger locomotive.

If we assume that Swindon actually built the locomotive as designed, and that design was free of the flawed draughting that made the problems so severe, it is possible to concede that the emergence of a new, highly efficient 8P class that can effectively rival a Type 4 diesel for tractive effort might have influenced the BR Modernisation Plan and prolonged the use of steam traction.

However I doubt it. More likely, the 8P Class would have acted as the WCML stopgap between Duchesses and eventual electrification, and may have resulted in a reduced size fleet of Class 40s (which struggled to equal the Stanier Pacifics, so would have been way behind a 71000) but ultimately the mid-60s electrification would still have gone ahead and they would have still been withdrawn with the end of steam by the end of the decade.

 

[Willr2094]

IIRC 71000 was built as a direct replacement for the destroyed 46202 Princess Anne.

71000 was indeed built in 1954 as a replacement for 46202 Princess Anne which had been irreparably damaged (and written off as a consequence) in the Harrow and Wealdstone crash in 1952.

 

[Bevan Price]

71000 was indeed built in 1954 as a replacement for 46202 Princess Anne which had been irreparably damaged (and written off as a consequence) in the Harrow and Wealdstone crash in 1952.

It probably could have been repaired, but being non-standard, it was presumably decided not to bother - the remains survived for nearly 2 years after the Harrow disaster. Looking at photos, 46242 City of Glasgow suffered even more damage than Princess Anne, but 46242 was repaired.

 

[Taunton]

The smogs of London culminated in the large one in December 1952 which brought about many fatalities, as well as completely disrupting travel. In the months that followed the government determined that coal smoke was the principal cause, from domestic fires but also from the many hundreds of steam locomotives in use. Among the cures was a decision to phase out steam operation in London as soon as practical. This would obviously impact express locos, which operated routes focused on London, so no long term future for them. It took a couple of years to put together the Modernisation Plan (and to gently ease Riddles into early retirement), when it came out the first all-diesel depot was Devons Road, Bow, in the heart of the East End where the smog was worst.

 

[Cowley]

The smogs of London culminated in the large one in December 1952 which brought about many fatalities, as well as completely disrupting travel. In the months that followed the government determined that coal smoke was the principal cause, from domestic fires but also from the many hundreds of steam locomotives in use. Among the cures was a decision to phase out steam operation in London as soon as practical. This would obviously impact express locos, which operated routes focused on London, so no long term future for them. It took a couple of years to put together the Modernisation Plan (and to gently ease Riddles into early retirement), when it came out the first all-diesel depot was Devons Road, Bow, in the heart of the East End where the smog was worst.

That sums it up very clearly. My dad grew up in London at that time and has talked about the clean air act and how bad things were before. In fact I remember my grandmother telling me about smog so thick that someone had to walk in front of a tram she was on I think?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That sums it up very clearly. My dad grew up in London at that time and has talked about the clean air act and how bad things were before. In fact I remember my grandmother telling me about smog so thick that someone had to walk in front of a tram she was on I think?

Good post - part of the issue was also major central and suburban London coal burning power stations - Battersea / Kingston / Waddon Marsh / Actol Lane etc + gasworks and a lot of the domestic coal burn was very poor coal as under the "export or die" plan , better coal was exported to earn hard cash to repair the post was budget.

London was just so filthy then ....look at some of the street scenes in say "Train of Events"..

 

[Taunton]

The largest steam loco depot in the country, by a considerable margin, was London Stratford, in 1950 it had nearly 400 locos on allocation, and that was after the Shenfield electrification had been commissioned. The atmosphere in all the residential areas around it on Sunday evenings when large numbers were being lit up (always the smokiest operation) for the week ahead was apparently dreadful.

It's ironic that diesels, seen in the 1950s as the clean air saviours, are now under attack themselves in London for their pollution.

London was just so filthy then

My father, in a position to make the comparison, told me that Manchester was worse! In the days when men wore detachable collars on shirts, the senior managers would take a second collar to work with them and change it over at lunchtime to maintain a good image in the afternoon.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Back to the thread - the SR had apparently way too many Pacifics - such that the sight of Bulleid Pacifics trundling around the far expanses of the West Country on 2 coach locals was fairly common , one gathers.

 

[Taunton]

the SR had apparently way too many Pacifics - such that the sight of Bulleid Pacifics trundling around the far expanses of the West Country on 2 coach locals was fairly common , one gathers.

... and still they slipped when starting

(in case you think I'm slightly exaggerating, I recall one at Exeter St Davids slipping when light engine).

 

[70014IronDuke]

Thompson A2/1 no. 60508 was Duke of Rothesay.

The A2/1s were never inducted into the Steam Locomotive Engine Shed of Fame.

 

[70014IronDuke]

... If we assume that Swindon actually built the locomotive as designed, and that design was free of the flawed draughting that made the problems so severe, it is possible to concede that the emergence of a new, highly efficient 8P class that can effectively rival a Type 4 diesel for tractive effort might have influenced the BR Modernisation Plan and prolonged the use of steam traction.

I know by 1953 Swindon had difficulties reading engineering drawings ( ) but it was built at Crewe, wasn't it?

Even if it had been built to spec, is there any evidence that it would have been so especially efficient that it could have staved off diesel adoption?

However I doubt it. More likely, the 8P Class would have acted as the WCML stopgap between Duchesses and eventual electrification, and may have resulted in a reduced size fleet of Class 40s (which struggled to equal the Stanier Pacifics, so would have been way behind a 71000) but ultimately the mid-60s electrification would still have gone ahead and they would have still been withdrawn with the end of steam by the end of the decade.

Again, what was wrong with the Duchess? why not build more, if more class 8s were needed? It seems to me that 71000 was an anachronism - I doubt it was any improvement in terms of maintenance costs - sure, it was only once cylinder inside, and not two, but once you put cylinders inside, you have difficulty getting to them = more downtime between usage.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It probably could have been repaired, but being non-standard, it was presumably decided not to bother - the remains survived for nearly 2 years after the Harrow disaster. Looking at photos, 46242 City of Glasgow suffered even more damage than Princess Anne, but 46242 was repaired.

But 6202 had been rebuilt from the Turbo-locomotve some months before Harrow. Was is still different from the other Princesses in significant ways?

In any case, replacing it with a single, not-standard Standard (IYSWIM) seems to defy the logic, at least to me, and, i suspect, to the average man on the Clapham Omnibus.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Back to the thread - the SR had apparently way too many Pacifics - such that the sight of Bulleid Pacifics trundling around the far expanses of the West Country on 2 coach locals was fairly common , one gathers.

The deployment of the Bulleid pacifics certainly was strange - when you consider they were still using N15s and Standard 5s on North Kent route expresses until electrification!

but I was under the impression that the 2-coach trains with Bulleids trundling into Padstow or Barnstaple or wherever were just the final stretch of the express from Waterloo, after half a dozen portions has been taken off (usually hauled by T9s, Ns or Us - far more modest motive power.)

 

[AndrewE]

It seems to me that 71000 was an anachronism - I doubt it was any improvement in terms of maintenance costs - sure, it was only once cylinder inside, and not two, but once you put cylinders inside, you have difficulty getting to them = more downtime between usage.

I don't think it was an anachronism at all, from what I understand it was a massive leap forward in the efficient use of steam, it's just a shame that the firebox (or ashpan) draughting and some other details let it down.

If the same amount of effort had been put into getting it to work as had to go into coping with the dozens of propotype diesels I'm sure it would have had sisters...
That's not to deny the benefits that came from eliminating burning coal in the conurbations though! (or eliminating the additional labour required for lighting up and disposing of steam locos, let alone the complexity and labour of oiling them up properly.)
A

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I know by 1953 Swindon had difficulties reading engineering drawings ( ) but it was built at Crewe, wasn't it?

Crewe, Swindon, same difference

Again, what was wrong with the Duchess? why not build more, if more class 8s were needed? It seems to me that 71000 was an anachronism - I doubt it was any improvement in terms of maintenance costs - sure, it was only once cylinder inside, and not two, but once you put cylinders inside, you have difficulty getting to them = more downtime between usage.

My point was that it was the 'previous man's idea' (or the man before that) and Robert Riddles had his own masterpiece on the agenda.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

But 6202 had been rebuilt from the Turbo-locomotve some months before Harrow. Was is still different from the other Princesses in significant ways?

I seem to recall reading that the frames were bent in the collision; if that is correct and the frames of the more visually damaged other locomotive were not bent it could explain why that one was rebuilt while 46202 was not.

 

[MarkyT]

As an aside, I do wonder why the new P2 wasn't named Duke of Rothesay, given that that is Prince Charles (the Prince of Wales)'s title in Scotland.

At the A1 Steam Trust's annual conference in Darlington last year, that very question was posed from the floor. Chairman Mark Allatt's reply was that the trust had been in contact with the Fleming family and planned to use James Bond style rotating nameplates that would flip between alternate titles as the loco crossed borders between the countries of the kingdom!

 

[EbbwJunction1]

At the A1 Steam Trust's annual conference in Darlington last year, that very question was posed from the floor. Chairman Mark Allatt's reply was that the trust had been in contact with the Fleming family and planned to use James Bond style rotating nameplates that would flip between alternate titles as the loco crossed borders between the countries of the kingdom!

I like it ... and if you take that to the extreme, you could use some of the aliases that 007 himself used ... here's a couple: http://www.jamesbondwiki.com/page/James+Bond+Aliases

 

[Cowley]

At the A1 Steam Trust's annual conference in Darlington last year, that very question was posed from the floor. Chairman Mark Allatt's reply was that the trust had been in contact with the Fleming family and planned to use James Bond style rotating nameplates that would flip between alternate titles as the loco crossed borders between the countries of the kingdom!

It'll already be fitted with a stealth smokescreen device for a quick getaway too. Let's just hope the fireman doesn't knock that red button next to his seat.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

And don't upset the CME, either ....

"Okay, boss, I expect you want me to drive this to Edinburgh?"
"Why, no, I expect you to ..... (you know the rest!)"