What (if anything) was wrong with the IEP procurement?

[Benjwri]

Funny I’ve been on one faster than 110 on the flat in diesel

Could be the power curve has been altered. Evershot claim the diesel max speed is 110.

 

[Krokodil]

There aren't that many sets that run as a 10 car all day in reality, since the majority end up being short formed.

So 2x5 isn't any better than 1x9 then, as the reality is "Five vice ten play sardines"

If the fleet was all 9 cars these would have to be cancelled.

Not if you had adequate spare cover, they wouldn't.

On the subject of Oxford, a number of the 800/801’s features actually saved the government/railway side embarrassment over the GWML electrification clustermess.

At some considerable cost to the taxpayer.

Funny I’ve been on one faster than 110 on the flat in diesel

Which class? Just how much faster?

 

[800001]

So 2x5 isn't any better than 1x9 then, as the reality is "Five vice ten play sardines"


Not if you had adequate spare cover, they wouldn't.


At some considerable cost to the taxpayer.


Which class? Just how much faster?

Class 800 at 118mph

 

[Benjwri]

Not if you had adequate spare cover, they wouldn't.

Part of the argument for 9 cars was less driving units is cheaper. If you’re going to buy a huge excess of 9 cars that goes away. It also isn’t true for places like Penzance where a few IETs are stored for morning services to London, and there isn’t capacity to just have spares laying around.

 

[Master29]

Funny I’ve been on one faster than 110 on the flat in diesel

Indeed. There are many threads on here saying they can achieve 125mph even though they are specd at 110mph.

 

[irish_rail]

The argument that a 5 replacing a 9 is better than a cancellation, therefore its great that we have countless little 5 car sets running around just doesn't hold sway. Back in those bad old HST days, funnily enough I don't recall any more cancellations than we experience now, despite there only ever being 2+8 or 2+7 sets. Fleet just made do with what was available. Any cancellations were confined to quieter trains, but as I say I don't really recall hardly any on the wofe route. The surplus of 5 car sets is doubtless costing a lot of money as ten car sets really are not great in terms of staffing or from a passenger perspective. The only advantage is they are ok at providing services on the PZ to Cardiff route, but fact remains we are lumbered with way to many 5s on the Western.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==

Indeed. There are many threads on here saying they can achieve 125mph even though they are specd at 110mph.

I've certainly managed more than 110 on diesel, can't recall exact figure but more like 116 117 something like that , definitely more than 110 though!

 

[Krokodil]

Part of the argument for 9 cars was less driving units is cheaper. If you’re going to buy a huge excess of 9 cars that goes away. It also isn’t true for places like Penzance where a few IETs are stored for morning services to London, and there isn’t capacity to just have spares laying around.

No one is suggesting having a spare unit hanging around every depot. There probably wasn't a spare HST at Long Rock but there almost certainly would usually have been one available at Laira. No, there just needs to be a large enough fleet so that several units find themselves out for repairs at the same time (maybe they hit a tree in the middle of leaf fall season) Hitachi still manage to provide the contracted number of sets each day.

You seem to imagine that short-forms are a very short-notice reaction to a unit failing on prep, or out in service. No, generally it will have been known about that night when Fleet know that they can't cover all diagrams in the morning. In fact in many cases, trains which may once have been intended to be formed of a 9/10 car are now LTP diagrammed for 5 - once upon a time they'd have been full length HSTs.

 

[Clarence Yard]

IETs can't reach 125mph on diesel, the most they ever manage on a flat grade is around 110mph

They achieve speeds higher on than that on diesel. Where on earth did you get that “information” from? If it was indeed Eversholt, they need to travel on the units a bit more!

They have been at higher speeds on diesel from entry into service - they would not have been able to keep to time if they only could have done 110mph!

 

[jimm]

The argument that a 5 replacing a 9 is better than a cancellation, therefore its great that we have countless little 5 car sets running around just doesn't hold sway. Back in those bad old HST days, funnily enough I don't recall any more cancellations than we experience now, despite there only ever being 2+8 or 2+7 sets. Fleet just made do with what was available. Any cancellations were confined to quieter trains, but as I say I don't really recall hardly any on the wofe route. The surplus of 5 car sets is doubtless costing a lot of money as ten car sets really are not great in terms of staffing or from a passenger perspective. The only advantage is they are ok at providing services on the PZ to Cardiff route, but fact remains we are lumbered with way to many 5s on the Western.

As I've pointed out many times before when you make statements along these lines, one reason why trains on the West of England route (and Bristol/South Wales) did not get cancelled on many occasions up to 2017 was because an HST allocated to a Cotswold Line service was switched by control to cover for a failed set, with a 180 or Turbo rustled up to stand in to Oxford and beyond by short-forming Thames Valley services - but as we all know, that didn't really matter, as it's just commuter-land.

And ask passengers how they feel about a 'little 5-car set' turning up rather than no train at all - you probably wouldn't get the answer you want in many cases, as they would rather have a shot at getting where they want to go at the time they expected, even if conditions on board are less than perfect. But passengers in the West Country are, of course, entitled to expect nothing less than perfect.

 

[MattRat]

Indeed. There are many threads on here saying they can achieve 125mph even though they are specd at 110mph.

That's normal practice surely? Always engineer slightly above spec so the unit isn't overworked just getting to spec.

 

[43096]

The argument that a 5 replacing a 9 is better than a cancellation, therefore it’s great that we have countless little 5 car sets running around just doesn't hold sway. Back in those bad old HST days, funnily enough I don't recall any more cancellations than we experience now, despite there only ever being 2+8 or 2+7 sets. Fleet just made do with what was available. Any cancellations were confined to quieter trains, but as I say I don't really recall hardly any on the wofe route. The surplus of 5 car sets is doubtless costing a lot of money as ten car sets really are not great in terms of staffing or from a passenger perspective. The only advantage is they are ok at providing services on the PZ to Cardiff route, but fact remains we are lumbered with way too many 5s on the Western.

I’m of the view that the ability to short-form to such an extent (due to the number of 5-car sets in the fleet) doesn’t concentrate minds from a maintenance point of view. It encourages an “it’s fine, we can short form” mentality. The IEP contract doesn’t help either…

 

[irish_rail]

As I've pointed out many times before when you make statements along these lines, one reason why trains on the West of England route (and Bristol/South Wales) did not get cancelled on many occasions up to 2017 was because an HST allocated to a Cotswold Line service was switched by control to cover for a failed set, with a 180 or Turbo rustled up to stand in to Oxford and beyond by short-forming Thames Valley services - but as we all know, that didn't really matter, as it's just commuter-land.

And ask passengers how they feel about a 'little 5-car set' turning up rather than no train at all - you probably wouldn't get the answer you want in many cases, as they would rather have a shot at getting where they want to go at the time they expected, even if conditions on board are less than perfect. But passengers in the West Country are, of course, entitled to expect nothing less than perfect.

Try coming down to the south west Jimm and actually asking someone how they feel when a full and standing 5 car unit turns up. Funnily enough the prospect of over 3 hours of standing in a vestibule does not fill them with joy. But you make a good point, perhaps substituting turbos onto the cotswold where available is a good way forward if it can displace any available 9s or 10s to serve the south west. Probably need to train up a few Worcester men on turbos first, but if it means the main routes get decent length trains then I'm all up for it.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problem is that was then, now is very different. The majority of the Turbos are now based in Bristol and Turbos don’t visit Paddington anything like they used to. So the opportunities to do that regularly have now effectively gone.

You are back to mixing and matching the IET fleet, including trying to re-arrange what Hitachi actually gives you in the morning from each depot.

 

[stuu]

I went to London last week, from Taunton. There were 4 people in the carriage. There were about the same in the next one. Coming home was busier, but still not every seat was taken leaving Paddington. It was the same the previous two times I have been to London this year, and all the journeys last year.

I appreciate that some trains will always be busier than others, and that all day diagrams mean over capacity in places, but the notion that a five car train will always be full and standing in the south west is risible.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The split of 5s and 9s makes sense in a world where you're going to be splitting and joining lots of a services day in and day out to focus resources on busy cores (say London to Oxford) but without having to run oversized trains to quieter extremities. In that world the fleet make up probably makes sense (though even then perhaps there is a small imbalance in the number of 5s vice 9s but it isn't "far too many")

That was always the plan, especially when the trains were ordered. NXEC/EC/VTEC were going to run direct trains from Bradford, Skipton, Harrogate, Huddersfield, Lincoln, Cleethorpes, Middlesbrough and Sunderland. The way they were going to do that was by joining units together for the busy section into London.

It hasn't quite worked out like that, obviously, and in many ways that's a shame.

The problem with IEP wasn't what they specified, more that they had no concept of price control. Hitachi completely pulled the DfT's pants down on price, to the extent Hitachi could afford a multi-billion discount when the National Audit Office started suggesting it was horrific value for money.

 

[coppercapped]

That was always the plan, especially when the trains were ordered. NXEC/EC/VTEC were going to run direct trains from Bradford, Skipton, Harrogate, Huddersfield, Lincoln, Cleethorpes, Middlesbrough and Sunderland. The way they were going to do that was by joining units together for the busy section into London.

It hasn't quite worked out like that, obviously, and in many ways that's a shame.

The problem with IEP wasn't what they specified, more that they had no concept of price control. Hitachi completely pulled the DfT's pants down on price, to the extent Hitachi could afford a multi-billion discount when the National Audit Office started suggesting it was horrific value for money.

I don't understand your last paragraph. According to published sources the IEP contract called for the train operator to pay train service provision payments to Agility Trains for each train set supplied. This fee is payable by the TOC, but guaranteed by the DfT, and remains payable for the duration of the IEP contract which is 27 1/2 years from the (not well publicised) start date.

I have not previously seen any reference to a reduction in the train service provision payments made as a result of the National Audit Office's report - which I supplied a link to in an earlier post #85 - on the Intercity Express Programme.

Trains purchased by the ROSCOs are leased by the train operator in the normal way.

 

[irish_rail]

I went to London last week, from Taunton. There were 4 people in the carriage. There were about the same in the next one. Coming home was busier, but still not every seat was taken leaving Paddington. It was the same the previous two times I have been to London this year, and all the journeys last year.

I appreciate that some trains will always be busier than others, and that all day diagrams mean over capacity in places, but the notion that a five car train will always be full and standing in the south west is risible.

That's certainly not my experience.in fact since covid lockdowns according to the TMS I certainly haven't experienced a single train that quiet! What time of day are you travelling?

 

[Benjwri]

They achieve speeds higher on than that on diesel. Where on earth did you get that “information” from? If it was indeed Eversholt, they need to travel on the units a bit more

Yep, Evershot here,

Maximum speed: 125mph electric, 110mph diesel

Did also attempt to double check and wherever I could find agreed.

Try coming down to the south west Jimm and actually asking someone how they feel when a full and standing 5 car unit turns up. Funnily enough the prospect of over 3 hours of standing in a vestibule does not fill them with joy

Are you seriously suggesting they would rather instead stand on the platform outside for an hour+ till the next train turns up, and miss their connections?

 

[Tetchytyke]

According to published sources the IEP contract called for the train operator to pay train service provision payments to Agility Trains for each train set supplied.

The initial agreement signed by Labour in 2009 was investigated by the coalition government in 2010/11, with a "value for money" report prepared. I thought the "value for money" report was by the NAO, but Google suggests it wasn't.

Lo and behold, it wasn't value for money, but Hitachi reduced the cost per train and the deal then got signed in 2011/12.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep, Evershot here,

Did also attempt to double check and wherever I could find agreed.

Specified maximum speed (what it needs to be able to achieve in given conditions) isn't necessarily the same thing as maximum permitted speed, though. Maximum permitted speed is 125.

Are you seriously suggesting theywould rather instead stand on the platform outside for an hour+ till the next train turns up, and miss their connections?

I certainly have done*. It depends on how critical the timings are. Go to a coffee place or pub and read a book. The ability to do this is one reason why I prefer walk-up tickets.

* I've actually done it on that route, too, though for a slightly different reason - the train before was cancelled, so I decided to take the one an hour later as the passengers from the cancelled one would have crowded my intended one out.

 

[northernbelle]

That's certainly not my experience.in fact since covid lockdowns according to the TMS I certainly haven't experienced a single train that quiet! What time of day are you travelling?

It is my experience, and I've travelled between London and the West of England for many years. There are some very busy trains, but there also plenty of trains that are quieter than they used to be.

In the mid-2010s, the late week afternoon London-WoE HSTs would be standing room only sometimes well into Devon. I just don't see that happening with the same regularity now - in part because the IETs are so much bigger.

5 car sets are certainly appropriate for what used to be many of the morning 'business' trains heading towards London such as the 'Golden Hind'.

 

[irish_rail]

It is my experience, and I've travelled between London and the West of England for many years. There are some very busy trains, but there also plenty of trains that are quieter than they used to be.

In the mid-2010s, the late week afternoon London-WoE HSTs would be standing room only sometimes well into Devon. I just don't see that happening with the same regularity now - in part because the IETs are so much bigger.

5 car sets are certainly appropriate for what used to be many of the morning 'business' trains heading towards London such as the 'Golden Hind'.

The former golden hind also doubles as first off peak train off Reading into London and therefore would be completely inappropriate as a 5 car train , although admittedly that particular train is quietish until Reading presumably as it is a peak service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==

Are you seriously suggesting they would rather instead stand on the platform outside for an hour+ till the next train turns up, and miss their conconnections

I'm seriously suggesting that customers paying 100 quid plus for a ticket deserve for their train to be formed of the correct number of coaches
, pity the thought. It was never an issue down here prior to IETs, but these wonderful 5 car sets have led to it now being a "thing" . Similarly before December there were more 9 cars about down here and 5 car substitutions were less common, but since the timetable change and increase in 10s instead of 9s surprise surprise there are more short forms. It will only get worse as castle HSTs begin to be withdrawn in numbers.....

 

[stuu]

That's certainly not my experience.in fact since covid lockdowns according to the TMS I certainly haven't experienced a single train that quiet! What time of day are you travelling?

942 from Taunton normally. I have caught that 10+ times in the last few months and it has never been busy... Various in the evenings, a few people standing to Reading sometimes, but there were seats available if they had wanted. Not had anyone next to me after Reading on any journey home... and I'm not walking all the way to the front or anything

 

[Krokodil]

Are you seriously suggesting they would rather instead stand on the platform outside for an hour+ till the next train turns up, and miss their connections?

They may well end up doing that anyway if the train is so rammed that they can't get on. Happens up here all the time, the fifth two-car unit in a row shows up and leaves passengers behind who couldn't get on the train two hours ago.

I went to London last week, from Taunton. There were 4 people in the carriage. There were about the same in the next one. Coming home was busier, but still not every seat was taken leaving Paddington. It was the same the previous two times I have been to London this year, and all the journeys last year.

I appreciate that some trains will always be busier than others, and that all day diagrams mean over capacity in places, but the notion that a five car train will always be full and standing in the south west is risible.

It may be quieter at this time of year, but if the option of hiring extra sets for the summer does not present itself then of course there's going to be slack in the winter to ensure that services can cope in the summer.

The problem is that was then, now is very different. The majority of the Turbos are now based in Bristol and Turbos don’t visit Paddington anything like they used to. So the opportunities to do that regularly have now effectively gone.

Now the only thing you can do is use 387s in place of IETs, which can only be done when the route is wired throughout - i.e. Cardiff.

 

[stuu]

It may be quieter at this time of year, but if the option of hiring extra sets for the summer does not present itself then of course there's going to be slack in the winter to ensure that services can cope in the summer.

Or they could just run them as 5 cars at the quieter times. And demand that Hitachi make them able to connect and detach as per the contract

 

[irish_rail]

942 from Taunton normally. I have caught that 10+ times in the last few months and it has never been busy... Various in the evenings, a few people standing to Reading sometimes, but there were seats available if they had wanted. Not had anyone next to me after Reading on any journey home... and I'm not walking all the way to the front or anything

That is the exception to the rule, I must admit as its the 8.15 off Plymouth and I agree its one I always aim for if travelling up country as its always quiet. But either side the trains are much busier. For some reason that one is always quiet. But can't be formed of shorter set as that set goes onto form the 1204 off London which is busiest train of the day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==

Or they could just run them as 5 cars at the quieter times. And demand that Hitachi make them able to connect and detach as per the contract

Trouble with that is as I said the 9.42 you highlight forms 1204 off London so would require a set swap or another set to attach at Paddington, which requires additional ECS moves off North Pole and additional traincrew too. In the long run it goes to show why it was a false economy to go for all the short sets as they will prove far more expensive in the long run.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==

Now the only thing you can do is use 387s in place of IETs, which can only be done when the route is wired throughout - i.e. Cardiff.

this is true, however London to Cardiff at 2 hours and connecting the two capital cities, it isn't really great for this route, which should be able to justify intercity stock. I doubt London to Leeds would be happy if it became formed of commuter stock (which is an equivalent journey time) so probably not too fair on Wales. At least when the poorer stock was going onto the cotswold route, the journeys were generally shorter and generally less than 2 hours.

 

[Benjwri]

I'm seriously suggesting that customers paying 100 quid plus for a ticket deserve for their train to be formed of the correct number of coaches
, pity the thought. It was never an issue down here prior to IETs, but these wonderful 5 car sets have led to it now being a "thing" . Similarly before December there were more 9 cars about down here and 5 car substitutions were less common, but since the timetable change and increase in 10s instead of 9s surprise surprise there are more short forms. It will only get worse as castle HSTs begin to be withdrawn in numbers.....

I didn't say short forms were a good thing, but it's still better than no train at all, which is the other option. I think blaming the entire problem on the IETs is unfair, it was less of a problem with HSTs because there were more spare units in the past. The lack of available units is something every GWR fleet is feeling, not just the IETs.

I highly doubt if a 9 car failed it would be replaced by another 9 car. As it is now any spares are either the other half of a 5 car, or from the ex Castle diagrams, with that 5 car replaced by a Castle Class. If there were no 5 cars there simply wouldn't be a replacement train, and instead everyone would be packed onto the next 9 car, with the original service cancelled.

They may well end up doing that anyway if the train is so rammed that they can't get on. Happens up here all the time, the fifth two-car unit in a row shows up and leaves passengers behind who couldn't get on the train two hours ago.

I'm well aware of the short forming of other DMUs, including the turbos around Bristol, and this is far more of a problem than the IETs. I have never seen a short formed IET so full it had to reject passengers at anywhere but Reading and perhaps Oxford a few times, and in Reading the frequency is high enough this doesn't matter. To get into that kind of situation you would have to have had some major issue.

Trouble with that is as I said the 9.42 you highlight forms 1204 off London so would require a set swap or another set to attach at Paddington, which requires additional ECS moves off North Pole and additional traincrew too. In the long run it goes to show why it was a false economy to go for all the short sets as they will prove far more expensive in the long run.

There are almost always spare train crews who could complete such a short move. It happens regularly every day when a unit fails and a new one needs to be brought into Paddington, at short notice. I'm sure tacking a short ECS move onto the end of someone's shift isn't that much of an issue, especially a scheduled one, and absolutely certain it is cheaper than carting tonnes of empty train all the way to Penzance.

this is true, however London to Cardiff at 2 hours and connecting the two capital cities, it isn't really great for this route, which should be able to justify intercity stock. I doubt London to Leeds would be happy if it became formed of commuter stock (which is an equivalent journey time) so probably not too fair on Wales.

To be fair the 387s aren't the worst stock, one would even say they're better than the 800s in some ways, certainly better ride quality. They're used for long journeys elsewhere.

At least when the poorer stock was going onto the cotswold route, the journeys were generally shorter and generally less than 2 hours.

Not too sure what line you actually think the Cotswold route is, but Worcester to Paddington is 3 hours on an IET, longer on a Turbo.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't understand the hate for them.
They are comfortable with lots of seats, generous legroom and decent overhead storage for luggage.

I don't find the ride that bad, not completely perfect but miles better than the Aventras and 220s.

 

[Master29]

As I've pointed out many times before when you make statements along these lines, one reason why trains on the West of England route (and Bristol/South Wales) did not get cancelled on many occasions up to 2017 was because an HST allocated to a Cotswold Line service was switched by control to cover for a failed set, with a 180 or Turbo rustled up to stand in to Oxford and beyond by short-forming Thames Valley services - but as we all know, that didn't really matter, as it's just commuter-land.

And ask passengers how they feel about a 'little 5-car set' turning up rather than no train at all - you probably wouldn't get the answer you want in many cases, as they would rather have a shot at getting where they want to go at the time they expected, even if conditions on board are less than perfect. But passengers in the West Country are, of course, entitled to expect nothing less than perfect.

Good old Jimm, the Worcester corridor hero and West of England villain. I would willingly wait another hour rather than being stuck on a sweaty 5 car train with no chance of any catering for a 5 hour journey but I suppose being from the South West I am entitled.

 

[irish_rail]

Not too sure what line you actually think the Cotswold route is, but Worcester to Paddington is 3 hours on an IET, longer on a TuTurbo

Eh? Its just over 2 hours. Nothing like 3 hours. And I wonder what proportion of passengers on a London bound train ex Worcester actually got on at Worcester? The vast majority get on from Charlbury onwards if going all the way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Feb 2023 ==

I didn't say short forms were a good thing, but it's still better than no train at all, which is the other option. I think blaming the entire problem on the IETs is unfair, it was less of a problem with HSTs because there were more spare units in the past. The lack of available units is something every GWR fleet is feeling, not just the IETs.

I highly doubt if a 9 car failed it would be replaced by another 9 car. As it is now any spares are either the other half of a 5 car, or from the ex Castle diagrams, with that 5 car replaced by a Castle Class. If there were no 5 cars there simply wouldn't be a replacement train, and instead everyone would be packed onto the next 9 car, with the original service cancelled.


I'm well aware of the short forming of other DMUs, including the turbos around Bristol, and this is far more of a problem than the IETs. I have never seen a short formed IET so full it had to reject passengers at anywhere but Reading and perhaps Oxford a few times, and in Reading the frequency is high enough this doesn't matter. To get into that kind of situation you would have to have had some major issue.

There are almost always spare train crews who could complete such a short move. It happens regularly every day when a unit fails and a new one needs to be brought into Paddington, at short notice. I'm sure tacking a short ECS move onto the end of someone's shift isn't that much of an issue, especially a scheduled one, and absolutely certain it is cheaper than carting tonnes of empty train all the way to Penzance.

To be fair the 387s aren't the worst stock, one would even say they're better than the 800s in some ways, certainly better ride quality. They're used for long journeys elsewhere.

Not too sure what line you actually think the Cotswold route is, but Worcester to Paddington is 3 hours on an IET, longer on a Turbo.

And regards lots of spare drivers being sat about at Paddington ready to spring in to action to go North Pole, I can confirm this very much not to be the case!