What happened to all the Mk3s

[AndyLandy]

Prior to the introduction of the Pendolinos, West Coast had 50 Mk3 sets, 15 hauled by 90s and 35 hauled by 87s. Presumably XC also had some hauled Mk3 sets?

The 15 sets with 90s went to Anglia, and a few Mk3s have been Chilternized, but what happened to the rest. Presumably some are now HST trailers (or hauled by converted HSTs a la Grand Central) but what about the rest? Or were all the remainder converted to HST stock in some form or other?

 

[IanXC]

Prior to the introduction of the Pendolinos, West Coast had 50 Mk3 sets, 15 hauled by 90s and 35 hauled by 87s. Presumably XC also had some hauled Mk3 sets?

I think you're imagining more Mark 3 sets than there ever were! Remember that West Coast also had Mark 2 rakes, and all(?) of Cross Country's hauled rakes were Mark 2.

Presumably some are now HST trailers (or hauled by converted HSTs a la Grand Central) but what about the rest? Or were all the remainder converted to HST stock in some form or other?

Not sure what you mean by 'hauled' Grand Central HST vehicles, GC took LHCS Mark 3s and had them coverted into HST specification Marks 3s.

 

[AndyLandy]

I think you're imagining more Mark 3 sets than there ever were! Remember that West Coast also had Mark 2 rakes, and all(?) of Cross Country's hauled rakes were Mark 2.

OK, I suspected it was possible that all XC's rakes were Mk2s, but I genuinely thought all the 87- and 90-hauled rakes were Mk3s. West Coast had some 86s with Mk2s as well, if memory serves.

Is there anyone out there who can confirm what the West Coast fleet was made up of at the turn of the centuyr?

Not sure what you mean by 'hauled' Grand Central HST vehicles, GC took LHCS Mark 3s and had them coverted into HST specification Marks 3s.

I'm sure there's an operator (I thought it was GC) who took a load of loco-hauled Mk3s and rather than convert them all to HST trailers, instead converted the HST power cars to work with Mk3 coaching stock.

 

[dk1]

Remember that most sets on EBW where mark 2s. A quick check of Wikipedia states that 848 vehicles where built but this includes loco-hauled & HST as well as what looks to include sleepers too. That's not leaving that many spare now considering GA has around 120 HSTs have been lengthened on FGW & EC, Chiltern are using several of course & many have been lost since sleepers where sold off/scrapped & some where withdrawn through accident damage.

 

[talltim]

I think the XC HSTs use ex loco hauled Mk3s

 

[jopsuk]

For "hauled stock" (Mark 3A and 3B) wikipedia gives the following total build numbers:
28 RFB
98 TFO
165 TSO
3 BFO
120 SLEP
88 SLE
4 Royal
52 DVT

It's only really the 291 RFB, TFO and TSO that concern us here- the BFOs are all in use at FGW on the sleepers, the SLE/SLEP are either at ScotRail, FGW or out of revenue use, the Royal coaches are extant and the DVTs is another matter.

So, again according to wikipedia GA have 121 coaches. That leaves us 170 to find
Chiltern are claimed to have 26- so that's us down to 144.
Grand Central appear to have 24 (converted to HST power systems), leaves 120.
Virgin have 9 in the Pretendolino rake- 111 remain to be found
Arriva Trains Wales: 8, leaving 103

How many others have been converted to HST vehicles and put into EC, XC, MML and GW rakes?
How many do charter companies have?

We could also look to how many HST vehicles are claimed for each of these fleets:
GW: 464
MML: 108
XC: 40
EC: 117
Total: 729

Total build (including prototypes): 733

So, other numbers we need:
how many have been scrapped after crashing?
How many of the prototype carriages went to the Royal Train and haven't come back?
How many Mark 3s are there in the NMT fleet?

 

[table38]

There used to be a load quietly rusting away at Long Marston, but I have no idea if they are still there.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31067997@N06/3651252918
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rob37430/6797348955/

 

[Eng274]

I've seen heritage trains (WCRC?) which have a few mk3s in their rake along with the mk1s.

How many were written off at southall (all I suspect) and the level crossing derailment a few years back? Probably doesn't account for the missing LHCS mk3s though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've seen heritage trains (WCRC?) which have a few mk3s in their rake along with the mk1s.

How many were written off at southall (all I suspect) and the level crossing derailment a few years back? Probably doesn't account for the missing LHCS mk3s though.

The only accident I can recall involving LHCS Mk3s is Winsford, when an 87 gobbled up a couple of 142s. I imagine the damage to the hauled coaches would've been fairly minimal, though the sets were not for off being up for replacement by then, so it's possible not all were repaired. As for the HST trailers, Southall, Ladbroke Grove and Ufton Nervet will account for a fair few, though it wouldn't surprise me if some vehicles were repaired after each of those- they only meant the end for one of the two powercars in each set, for example.

 

[158722]

The only accident I can recall involving LHCS Mk3s is Winsford, when an 87 gobbled up a couple of 142s. I imagine the damage to the hauled coaches would've been fairly minimal, though the sets were not for off being up for replacement by then, so it's possible not all were repaired. As for the HST trailers, Southall, Ladbroke Grove and Ufton Nervet will account for a fair few, though it wouldn't surprise me if some vehicles were repaired after each of those- they only meant the end for one of the two powercars in each set, for example.

A couple of mk3s were written off in an accident on the southern WCML very early on in their lives, can't recall location. Fairly sure a couple went because of the Colwich accident, plus a couple more because of the Polmont derailment.

Several LH Mk3s also converted to HST spec for Arriva XC.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm sure exact numbers must be avilable somewhere
1. Charter fleets
2. LH accident write offs
3. HST accident write offs
4. LH>HST Conversions (other than GC, as mentioned above)
5. Royal Conversions
6. NMT and other network rail test fleet.

 

[158747]

The only accident I can recall involving LHCS Mk3s is Winsford, when an 87 gobbled up a couple of 142s. I imagine the damage to the hauled coaches would've been fairly minimal, though the sets were not for off being up for replacement by then, so it's possible not all were repaired. As for the HST trailers, Southall, Ladbroke Grove and Ufton Nervet will account for a fair few, though it wouldn't surprise me if some vehicles were repaired after each of those- they only meant the end for one of the two powercars in each set, for example.

The standard class vehicles from Southall survived the accident and these vehicles were also in the train involved in the collision at Ladbroke Grove. All or most of the standard class vehicles again survived the accident. All the coaches from Ufton Nervet were scrapped.

 

[AlexS]

I think the XC HSTs use ex loco hauled Mk3s

A couple of sets are ex Midland Mainline, and a couple are ex loco hauled. If you look closely at the carriages you can usually work out which is which where paint has chipped etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ICWC had 30 Mk3 sets I think.
The "50" may have been the total number of sets (and DVTs) but a significant number of sets were Mk2s.
Mk2s remained on Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton, where their 100mph max speed was not so much of a handicap, until replaced by Pendolinos.
Mk3s were mainly on 110mph Liverpool/Manchester/Glasgow services, but there was always a proportion of Mk2 services even on these routes.
For a long time trains were also mixed, often with Mk3 First and Mk2 Standard sections.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....So, other numbers we need:
how many have been scrapped after crashing?
How many of the prototype carriages went to the Royal Train and haven't come back?
How many Mark 3s are there in the NMT fleet?

The NMT fleet is HST Mk3s, not loco hauled, though I think there are six (buffets and TGS vehicles I believe). The EWS (DBS) company train has loco hauled Mk3s.

Cargo D had a few Mk3s and I believe 12140 was scrapped by Porterbrook (non-standard) as a way of coaxing people to lease the Mk3s when Virgin had finished with them.

Two prototype carriages went to the Royal Train, four TRUKs (HST stock) were converted for use and there were other specially built coaches and sleepers.

A couple of mk3s were written off in an accident on the southern WCML very early on in their lives, can't recall location. Fairly sure a couple went because of the Colwich accident, plus a couple more because of the Polmont derailment....

You might be thinking of Bushey? A couple probably did go there. Colwich was mostly Mk2s IIRC, but claimed some Mk3s. Polmont was a maximum of four Mk3s.

 

[Bald Rick]

As delivered all HSTs for Western and Cross country were 2+7, now they are all 2+8. Also the HSTs for the ECML were 2+8, and I think they are now 2+9. These vehicles must have come from somewhere...

 

[Helvellyn]

For "hauled stock" (Mark 3A and 3B) wikipedia gives the following total build numbers:
28 RFB
98 FO
165 TSO
3 BFO
120 SLEP
88 SLE
4 Royal
52 DVT

It's only really the 291 RFB, FO and TSO that concern us here- the BFOs are all in use at FGW on the sleepers, the SLE/SLEP are either at ScotRail, FGW or out of revenue use, the Royal coaches are extant and the DVTs is another matter.

Well before some vehicles were scrapped after coming off lease with Virgin, the following Mark 3s had been written off: -

11004 FO accident, Polmont 30/07/1984
11025 FO accident, Colwich 19/09/1986
11061 FO accident, Colwich 19/09/1986
12006 TSO accident, Polmont 30/07/1984
12018 TSO arson, Cowlairs 05/11/1981
12039 TSO accident, Bushey 16/02/1980
12074 TSO accident, Colwich 19/09/1986
12162 TSO accident, Bushey 16/02/1980

18 FOs were also converted to RFMs in 1987-88 (along with the 28 RFBs and 12 HST TRUKs to give 58 Mk 3A catering vehicles, although a number operated with Mk 2F FOs and TSOs).

4 ex-ScotRail COs (FOs converted to COs in 1985) were also converted to TSOs by InterCity once made surplus by ScotRail.

From the 60 Mk 3A FOs built therefore between write-offs and conversions only 35 were left to be operated by Virgin Trains.

The 38 Mk 3B FOs remained static and operated as a complete fleet for Virgin Trains.

The 165 TSOs were reduced to 160 by write-offs, but went back to 164 to be taken on by Virgin Trains after FO conversions.

 

[theblackwatch]

There's a list of all stored loco-hauled Mk. 3 'day' coaches in the September issue of Rail Express. To summarise, there are the following in store:
17 x RFM
14 x FO
23 x TSO

 

[alanf]

There is one i think a buffet parked behind a pub on the Scarborough to Whitby road. 2 other coaches are also there but i dont think they were mk3s

 

[colchesterken]

Went to York to do the museums saw Hamilton at shilden beautfull
I thought it was daft to have stoppers to York under the wires all the way as HST sets
they should convert some Mk 3 and refurbed 90s I am sure 15 mph would not make too much difference to the timetables
The other thing that struck me was how grotty our Anglia mk 3 are when you look at the ECML units it is just new plastic panels and new lights they look great my norwich train back had different colour strip lights looked tatty
We need the chiltern treatment on our mk3s

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought it was daft to have stoppers to York under the wires all the way as HST sets

This is due to the way the diagrams have been worked out and also EC simply do not have enough IC225s to cover all their electric diagrams (even before the York stoppers).

they should convert some Mk 3 and refurbed 90s I am sure 15 mph would not make too much difference to the timetables

To the timetable? Maybe not. But to the number of paths available to actually run service it will make a difference. Network Rail have been clear that the ECML is a 125mph railway for long distance services. They would not approve of running 110mph services on the southern end of the ECML.

 

[455driver]

A couple of sets are ex Midland Mainline, and a couple are ex loco hauled. If you look closely at the carriages you can usually work out which is which where paint has chipped etc.

Easiest way to tell is to look at the vents on the roof above the doors, HST coaches have one large square vent and ex loco-hauled have 3 smaller oval vents.

 

[317 forever]

I am wondering when these were built. I have the feeling the Mk 2s in 1966-68 and the Mk 3s in 1973-75. Is this roughly correct?

 

[jopsuk]

This is the sort of thing where Wikipedia is usually pretty reliable. Build dates:
Prototypes (for the prototype HST): 1972
HST stock: 1976-82
Mark 3a- hauled, included all the standard class, sleepers and catering: 1975-84
Mark 3b- hauled, mainly 1st class vehicles, included the 3xBFOs (now used on the FGW sleepers as standard class seating) and the DVTs: 1985-88

Mark 2s were 1964-75. Remember that the first Mark 2s had slide-open windows, a central door as well as end ones, were dual (vacuum and air) braked and could take steam heating, whilst the final ones were pretty much mark 3s but shorter.

 

[IanXC]

Mark 3b- hauled, mainly 1st class vehicles, included the 3xBFOs (now used on the FGW sleepers as standard class seating) and the DVTs: 1985-88

Does anyone know the reason for these 3 BFOs being built? Presumably for a specific task?

 

[theblackwatch]

Remember that the first Mark 2s had slide-open windows, a central door as well as end ones, were dual (vacuum and air) braked and could take steam heating, whilst the final ones were pretty much mark 3s but shorter.

Mk. 2 stock was never dual braked - it wasn't physically possible! The first batch were VB, and later ones built with Air Brakes. Some were modified from one to the other, but lack of space prevented them from being fitted with both.

 

[dubscottie]

Does anyone know the reason for these 3 BFOs being built? Presumably for a specific task?

I think they were built for use on the Manchester Pullman but became redundant following the introduction of the DVT's and then ended up providing Brake accommodation on the Euston - Inverness "Clansman" before the service was scrapped.

Can remember seeing them in Edinburgh on a daily basis after the Clansman was routed there instead of via Cumbernauld and then cut to serve just Edinburgh.

The BFO is the second coach in this vid.. Had it in my favourites for reference for a model railway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5wG9Kb-qtI

 

[Helvellyn]

Does anyone know the reason for these 3 BFOs being built? Presumably for a specific task?

I asked this previously on this site and was told to Google it! Never did find what I supposed to finf by using Google, as apparently there should have been 52 BFOs built but only 3 were. Something to do with plans for there to be a lot more Mark 3B coaches than were finally built (38 FOs and 3 BFOs), so if anyone can enlighten me I'd be appreciative!

 

[D7666]

Mk. 2 stock was never dual braked - it wasn't physically possible! The first batch were VB, and later ones built with Air Brakes. Some were modified from one to the other, but lack of space prevented them from being fitted with both.

Au contraire.

It must have been physically possible ... because it existed ... on at least one Mk2 car.

DB999550.

This had VB for sandwiching between DMU motor coaches, AB for EMU, and even SR-style high level brake pipes (although I think, not sure, not EP).


OK I accept a test car is not standard, but nevertheless it is (or was) a DB Mk.2, proving it could have been done. I suggest the real reason DB Mk.2s were not in fleet service was no need for them.

I have no idea what 999550's current braking equipment is, I guess it might be AB only these days ?


--
Nick

 

[theblackwatch]

Au contraire.

It must have been physically possible ... because it existed ... on at least one Mk2 car.

DB999550.

This had VB for sandwiching between DMU motor coaches, AB for EMU, and even SR-style high level brake pipes (although I think, not sure, not EP).


OK I accept a test car is not standard, but nevertheless it is (or was) a DB Mk.2, proving it could have been done. I suggest the real reason DB Mk.2s were not in fleet service was no need for them.

I have no idea what 999550's current braking equipment is, I guess it might be AB only these days ?


--
Nick

That's very interesting to know - I'm sure I've seen it quoted several times that they can be 'VB' or 'AB' only and I remember the Edinburgh-Glasgow early Mk.2 coaches were converted from VB to AB rather that being dual, which seemed to back this up. I will have to have a study of the Mk. 2 Coaches book and see what it says.