What happened, and what should have happened?

[Pumperkin]

I was travelling from Liverpool to Sandwell yesterday (21/09/2019). Upon leaving Liverpool I got chatting to an elderly man who had come from Bangor at 18:10, wanted to get to London but found himself in Liverpool. He had managed to get to Chester, then for the next train to Runcorn had been directed by a staff member to a train that went to Liverpool instead.

The problem then was that the last train BHM -> Euston would already have left by the time we got there. I managed to find a night National Express from Wolverhampton to Heathrow so we alighted there with him planning on getting that.

He asked a member of staff on platform at Wolves if there was any way of getting to London to which the staff member said get yourself to BHM and they'll get you home or put you up.

The issue I can see is that had he got the right train at Chester he'd have made the connection at Runcorn and wouldn't have been caught up.

He left Wolves at 22:17 - just wondering if anyone else was going BHM -> London around 22:30 and whether he would have got home safely. He had a Bangor -> London Stations Any route permitted ticket.

 

[yorkie]

The railway should allow travel on alternative services for no extra charge (though not everyone is treated that way; XC recently charged someone in these circumstances even though railway staff authorised them to travel back to their destination at no cost)

However - unless the rail industry is at fault for the situation - I think the railway cannot reasonably be expected to pay for the cost of either alternative transport or a hotel. But if the person is in a confused state then I believe the railway should have a duty of care to provide some sort of assistance, whether that be help organising an alternative, or helping them get in contact with a family member or something.

 

[Pumperkin]

The railway should allow travel on alternative services for no extra charge (though not everyone is treated that way; XC recently charged someone in these circumstances even though railway staff authorised them to travel back to their destination at no cost)

However - unless the rail industry is at fault for the situation - I think the railway cannot reasonably be expected to pay for the cost of either alternative transport or a hotel. But if the person is in a confused state then I believe the railway should have a duty of care to provide some sort of assistance, whether that be help organising an alternative, or helping them get in contact with a family member or something.

Thanks for the reply and paragraphs (if it was you). He wasn't really confused per se, just had no way of connecting to internet to investigate and train had no conductor in sight to ask, so we had to make the best of it for him.

 

[yorkie]

The trains from Chester to Liverpool don't have Conductors; they do have non-commercial Guards, but I am not sure they would have been able to provide much in the way of advice. However staff at Lime Street should have been able to help. As for Liverpool to Birmingham, these trains do have commercial Guards but it's common to not see them.

As for the mention of Runcorn, I think you meant Crewe? Unless there were engineering works you'd normally go via Crewe. If that line was shut, then a train to Warrington (via, but not alighting at Runcorn East) would get you in the right direction. Runcorn itself would be problematical because that would involve getting from Runcorn East to Runcorn which is much further than the names might suggest.

You say he "left Wolves at 2217" which suggests he was on the 2035 from Liverpool. This was booked into BHM at 2217 (actual 2219) which officially misses the last connection but in practice he would have got to London, as the last train departed late at 2233, and got to Euston at 0048.

 

[Pumperkin]

As for the mention of Runcorn, I think you meant Crewe? Unless there were engineering works you'd normally go via Crewe. If that line was shut, then a train to Warrington (via, but not alighting at Runcorn East) would get you in the right direction. Runcorn itself would be problematical because that would involve getting from Runcorn East to Runcorn which is much further than the names might suggest.

You say he "left Wolves at 2217" which suggests he was on the 2035 from Liverpool. This was booked into BHM at 2217 (actual 2219) which officially misses the last connection but in practice he would have got to London, as the last train departed late at 2233, and got to Euston at 0048.

I saw his itinerary and it was definitely Runcorn... hmm.
The problem with your last bit is we got off the train at Wolverhampton to get him onto the coach, so didn't leave Wolverhampton until the next train at 22:17. Not sure what time this got to Birmingham but connection would have been tight if even possible!

 

[M28361M]

I saw his itinerary and it was definitely Runcorn... hmm.

Has his itinerary routed him onto the new TFW service from Chester-Liverpool via Runcorn, changing at the latter station for a Virgin to London? It might not seem the most intuitive route for Bangor-London (and I don't think it is a permitted route) but I just tried planning a similar journey for Saturday 28th and the National Rail journey planner offered this:

1811 Bangor-Chester
1931 Chester-Runcorn
2005 Runcorn-London

This was without putting in any via points, but there was a note saying more than one ticket was needed.

There's a tight connection at Chester (6 mins) and looking at Realtime Trains, yesterday the train from Bangor was a couple of minutes late. Perhaps he missed the Runcorn train and, knowing that the Runcorn train's ultimate destination was Lime Street, asked the staff member for the next train to Liverpool?

 

[krus_aragon]

There's a tight connection at Chester (6 mins) and looking at Realtime Trains, yesterday the train from Bangor was a couple of minutes late. Perhaps he missed the Runcorn train and, knowing that the Runcorn train's ultimate destination was Lime Street, asked the staff member for the next train to Liverpool?

Or alternatively, when asking what to do (after the Runcorn/Lime St train left), the member of staff suggested the Merseyrail service to Liverpool, unaware that the traveller's intention was to change at Runcorn? "Missed that Liverpool train? Don't worry, this goes to Liverpool too."

 

[kieron]

Has his itinerary routed him onto the new TFW service from Chester-Liverpool via Runcorn, changing at the latter station for a Virgin to London? It might not seem the most intuitive route for Bangor-London (and I don't think it is a permitted route) but I just tried planning a similar journey for Saturday 28th and the National Rail journey planner offered this:

Just to confirm, it isn't a valid route. You'd need something like JO+EV to be a valid map combination, and there's nothing like that for journeys to London. How he came by that itinerary may have an effect on whatever happened after he left Wolverhampton.

There's a tight connection at Chester (6 mins) and looking at Realtime Trains, yesterday the train from Bangor was a couple of minutes late. Perhaps he missed the Runcorn train and, knowing that the Runcorn train's ultimate destination was Lime Street, asked the staff member for the next train to Liverpool?

The train from Bangor got into Chester late, but the Runcorn one was even later. He would have had more than the minimum connection time at Chester and Runcorn to catch his intended train. Looking for a member of station staff on the island platform can easily waste a few minutes, though, and it's easy enough to miss the departure board for someone who's happy to find a train with it.

 

[krus_aragon]

The train from Bangor got into Chester late, but the Runcorn one was even later. He would have had more than the minimum connection time at Chester and Runcorn to catch his intended train. Looking for a member of station staff on the island platform can easily waste a few minutes, though, and it's easy enough to miss the departure board for someone who's happy to find a train with it.

There'd also be the need to cross the footbridge (assuming the Bangor train arrived on P2/3), which may not have been a quick task for the elderly gentleman the OP describes.

 

[Pumperkin]

Just to confirm, it isn't a valid route. You'd need something like JO+EV to be a valid map combination, and there's nothing like that for journeys to London. How he came by that itinerary may have an effect on whatever happened after he left Wolverhampton.

The itinerary was printed on an AtW bogroll type thing. I haven't seen them before but looked like a ticket but was actually an itinerary. I presume it was a walk up ticket bought on board the train. It was definitely 18:11 ex Bangor, changing at Chester and Runcorn - so presuming this came from the conductor on board (sorry if it's not technically a conductor - to me they'll always be that), perhaps it was due to the issues on that line on Saturday that it routed this way? It was an any routes permitted ticket as well.

 

[Pumperkin]

Just looking at NRE. If he had it in mind that he needed to get to Runcorn, and missed the 18:31, the next routed train is 19:35 changed at Liverpool Lime Street. Perhaps this is the train he ended up on? He would have been in Liverpool in time to get the next train south via Chester/Crewe/Wolverhampton to Birmingham. We realised his predicament around Liverpool South Parkway so dissuaded him from getting off at Runcorn. Looking at this coming Saturday (28/09) there appears to be a 21:04 RUN - EUS but this does not appear to have run on the 21/09.

OLD POST ABOVE, NEW POST BELOW

Correction... the 21:04 is weekdays. We arrived at Runcorn at the same minute as the last train RUN - EUS (20:52).