What, generally, is the best way forward for High Speed 2?

[edwin_m]

Afterall the location of a terminus station at Curzon Street was always a poor choice, which is why the original one closed and services moved to New Street.

I don't think a useful conclusion can be drawn from the fact Curzon Street closed in 1893.

The name is in some ways unfortunate - the buffer stops will be much closer to the city centre than the original London and Birmingham terminus building, the city has expanded towards the station site in the meantime and will do so a lot more before it opens. It would have been better to call it "Moor Street High Speed" or something similar, as the buffer stops are very close to the entrance to Moor Street. Something needs to be done to improve the pedestrian links to New Street, such as closing the road under the shopping centre and adding moving walkways, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of any option that brings HS2 into New Street, and more people would benefit from that than would fit onto the few HS trains per hour that might be squeezed in there.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think a useful conclusion can be drawn from the fact Curzon Street closed in 1893.

The name is in some ways unfortunate - the buffer stops will be much closer to the city centre than the original London and Birmingham terminus building, the city has expanded towards the station site in the meantime and will do so a lot more before it opens. It would have been better to call it "Moor Street High Speed" or something similar, as the buffer stops are very close to the entrance to Moor Street. Something needs to be done to improve the pedestrian links to New Street, such as closing the road under the shopping centre and adding moving walkways, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of any option that brings HS2 into New Street, and more people would benefit from that than would fit onto the few HS trains per hour that might be squeezed in there.

Also, the city centre will expand itself around the station. Think how the area around King's Cross has developed over the last decade.

 

[The Planner]

You've fixated on this issue of capacity at New Street when no one knows how services will evolve over the next decade or more and how that available capacity will be utilised, but you haven't addressed the original point which was why might you want a link between HS2 and New Street? Which I answered, to allow services on HS2 which extend, unbroken, into the rest of the West Midlands conurbation because many users will start their journeys outside Birmingham city centre, and I think there's a strong argument for that.

Afterall the location of a terminus station at Curzon Street was always a poor choice, which is why the original one closed and services moved to New Street.

Except they do. The plan for the WCML from Dec 22 up until HS2 opens is pretty much nailed down bar the shouting. How many HS2 trains would you expect to use New St and where are they going? The original passive provision for a link on the Water Orton corridor got binned very early on.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't think a useful conclusion can be drawn from the fact Curzon Street closed in 1893.

The name is in some ways unfortunate - the buffer stops will be much closer to the city centre than the original London and Birmingham terminus building, the city has expanded towards the station site in the meantime and will do so a lot more before it opens. It would have been better to call it "Moor Street High Speed" or something similar, as the buffer stops are very close to the entrance to Moor Street. Something needs to be done to improve the pedestrian links to New Street, such as closing the road under the shopping centre and adding moving walkways, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of any option that brings HS2 into New Street, and more people would benefit from that than would fit onto the few HS trains per hour that might be squeezed in there.

Hear hear, I’ve been pointing this out for years. Their il-advised decision to reuse the Curzon St name, rather than the actual street at the main entrance, gave ammunition to those aiming to prove how far it was from New St. I can only assume they hoped it would help win over the heritage lobby.

 

[HST43257]

This isn’t to do with any previous discussions I believe, but I was just thinking:

Would it be better to have some extra chords off HS2 track near Birmingham for hourly services to London, or just get people to Birmingham Interchange with alternative transport (car, bus or local rail)?

Such services could be:

1tph London to Shrewsbury calling at Birmingham Interchange, (connect to Sutton Park line) Sutton Coldfield, Walsall, Wolverhampton (low level station?!?!), Telford, Wellington and Shrewsbury.

1tph London to Derby calling at Birmingham Interchange, Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent and Derby.


For the Shrewsbury one, if the Shrewsbury HS2 service didn’t exist, Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury stations would have an hourly Avanti service.




Also, if Phase 2B East started by only going to East Mids Parkway, but then got extended to Leeds and York at a later date, would a Toton Hub station be built?

 

[tomuk]

1tph London to Shrewsbury calling at Birmingham Interchange, (connect to Sutton Park line) Sutton Coldfield, Walsall, Wolverhampton (low level station?!?!), Telford, Wellington and Shrewsbury.
For the Shrewsbury one, if the Shrewsbury HS2 service didn’t exist, Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury stations would have an hourly Avanti service.

It will actually be quicker and a nicer interchange to go from Shrewsbury to London via Crewe when using HS2

 

[HST43257]

It will actually be quicker and a nicer interchange to go from Shrewsbury to London via Crewe when using HS2

What about Telford and Wolverhampton

 

[The Planner]

It will actually be quicker and a nicer interchange to go from Shrewsbury to London via Crewe when using HS2

Indeed, i suspect you could get that down to 1hr 40 with a decent connection at Crewe.

 

[6Gman]

Yes of course, I think 2tph from Coventry to London Euston would do Coventry and Milton Keynes a favour.

That's what I mean, we can't rely this much on two tracks, as much as costs are going through the roof as it is, we need to do more than just HS2 I think.

You do realise that work is already under way?

Are you suggesting this should be suspended while the whole scheme is redesigned?

Because that's the only way your ideas could be put into effect.

 

[BrianW]

If existing London bound services from the rest of the West Midlands already use capacity into New Street then having a link to HS2, to give the option for some of them services to travel to London via HS2 doesn't impact on capacity, it isn't using any more.

If there's a link between the existing network and HS2 then its possible to start services on the other side of the West Midlands conurbation, serving various large towns along the way and pick-up passengers, before dropping onto HS2 for the leg to London. Rather than going through the West Midlands, dumping everyone at New Street, where they need to get out, make their way across to HS2, wait around a while, before getting the HS2, thereby removing a significant proportion of the time saving.

Forget the needs of the railway for second, think about it from the perspective of a passenger making a journey. That journey doesn't begin at the HS2 station, it starts somewhere else.

Do we know where current Birmingham- Euston passengers start from?
I can see the possibility that for some the 'classic' route will still work well- esp if price, connectivity, comfort are issues.
Wolverhampton, Coventry and maybe even Rugby will still be 'draws', esp if city centre or 'parkway'/ driving/ parking etc are considerations.
Even if 'connecting' (esp if walking) can be made quick and easy, there will still be perception that it's not, and folk will build in their own 'recovery time'.
Any 'guidance' from existing 'connections' Snow Hill/ New Street/ Moor Street- how many actually interchange and how long folk allow for it? Or Manchester Picc/ Vic?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

My tuppence worth is to have maintained 11 platforms at Euston (just in case) all of the phases built as first suggested but with more failsafes to the legacy network, more triangle junctions with single track branches off the WCML or other routes when things go tits up. We know there'll be an incident where the OHLE gets damaged or whatever and trains just get queued up on HS2, whereas workable diversions onto the legacy network which would allow for better integration

 

[Ianno87]

What about Telford and Wolverhampton

Wolves-Stafford-HS2-Euston will be pretty quick, as well as going via Curzon Street.

 

[6Gman]

Now I know what you're thinking, Wigan Central? I believe Wigan North Western and Wigan Wallgate should be merged into one station, Campaign for Better Transport say the same here.

Where would this Wigan Central be located?

Especially if it is to split trains for the WCML and Southport?