We know that SWR has withdrawn its on-train catering and there are rumours that GWR might follow suit. Is catering likely to be a casualty of Treasury-inspired cuts? And could an independent provider such as a rail user group step in as on the Settle Carlisle line?
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What future is there for on-train catering?
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Masbroughlad
Established Member
Needs to be made attractive and affordable again. Long duration journeys should always have something available.
What next? Do away with seats? Who needs toilets?
On board offers should not be 'one size fits all'.
Some of us still want our journey to be pleasurable and not just a pile 'em high, cash cow for shareholders.
What next? Do away with seats? Who needs toilets?
On board offers should not be 'one size fits all'.
Some of us still want our journey to be pleasurable and not just a pile 'em high, cash cow for shareholders.
D6130
Established Member
....and yet Transport for Wales - which is not affected by the DfT's demands for financial savings - is investing a lot of money in improving the catering on its longer distance services....particularly on the Mark 4 loco-hauled sets between Cardiff and Holyhead/Manchester, with hot meals freshly-cooked and served at seat for first class passengers and some decent hot dishes available at the buffet counter for standard class passengers to take back to their seats. They obviously believe that there is a future for on-train catering.
rf_ioliver
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Maybe a bit of innovation is necessary...onboard catering here in Finland became a bit of a joke and then someone had the great idea of basically putting a reputable coffee shop into an InterCity restaurant car (https://www.vr.fi/palvelut-junassa/ravintolavaunu). Now you can book seats, a small group sitting area - there's a bar-style sitting area along the windows, power sockets and reasonable, free wifi. Some trains still rely on a small trolley service but the long distance trains at least serve good coffee and a good range of food. The trouble is now that the area is very very popular.
If you're going to sell insipid coffee and a "BR-style sandwich" at extortionate prices then it will never work.
When VR were doing their best to get ride of all the night-trains many years ago (especially the 12hr Oulu-Kuopio-Helsinki route) they firstly made the tickets impossible to buy, then provided a fully stocked restaurant carriage but didn't allow anyone to buy food (!!!). I ended up calling for a pizza from some pizza place in Kajaani and picked it up when the train arrived there - I was not the only one with this idea
mike57
Established Member
On board catering should have a future, and should be looked at as part of the service rather than a profit centre in its own right, i.e. break even operation.
Howver the reality I suspect is different.
TfW seem to think its a useful addition to longer journeys, other operators are less enthusiastic.
My own view is any journey over 2h should try to offer at least hot drinks and snacks, even if its a hop on hop off trolley covering the core part of the route. Anything at 3-4hrs or more should be offering something more substantial.
Watching a video about Indian Railways there was mention of a take away app where food is delivered to the station and direct to the passengers, maybe something like that could work in this country. Maybe trolley host takes the orders and its delivered to the next suitable stop, and taken to passengers.
It feels like its one of those areas where there has been no imagination shown. My own 'recipe' would be keep it simple, popular and cooked fresh where possible. Its a shame someone cannot design a deep fat fryer which is safe to use on a train, Fish and Chips would probably tick those boxes. Maybe each train is fitted with a different 'fast food' kitchen so regular travellers get a change.
Proper multi course catering is good but can only feed a small proportion of full train, maybe see how the TfW model works out. Also cost would probably rule it out for a lot travellers.
What is needed in my opinion are simple hot dishes that sits between sandwiches and full blown 3 course meal.
Howver the reality I suspect is different.
TfW seem to think its a useful addition to longer journeys, other operators are less enthusiastic.
My own view is any journey over 2h should try to offer at least hot drinks and snacks, even if its a hop on hop off trolley covering the core part of the route. Anything at 3-4hrs or more should be offering something more substantial.
Watching a video about Indian Railways there was mention of a take away app where food is delivered to the station and direct to the passengers, maybe something like that could work in this country. Maybe trolley host takes the orders and its delivered to the next suitable stop, and taken to passengers.
It feels like its one of those areas where there has been no imagination shown. My own 'recipe' would be keep it simple, popular and cooked fresh where possible. Its a shame someone cannot design a deep fat fryer which is safe to use on a train, Fish and Chips would probably tick those boxes. Maybe each train is fitted with a different 'fast food' kitchen so regular travellers get a change.
Proper multi course catering is good but can only feed a small proportion of full train, maybe see how the TfW model works out. Also cost would probably rule it out for a lot travellers.
What is needed in my opinion are simple hot dishes that sits between sandwiches and full blown 3 course meal.
As long as train services with average journey times long enough to generate demand for on-board refeshments are so deperately short of basic passenger space, there will be pressure to abandon fixed catering provision. With increased train speeds comes shorter journey times so that further cuts will become the norm. The idea that an end-door so called inter-city layout qualifies for catering is from a past era when catering was cheaper to provide and custom was more reliable.
At best trolley is likley to be the exception on the longest journeys with no revenue real-state used other than a secure stowage of equipment and supplies.
At best trolley is likley to be the exception on the longest journeys with no revenue real-state used other than a secure stowage of equipment and supplies.
I think possibly the best idea would be to replace most onboard catering with a vending machine based system, especially given vending machines that cook hot food now exist. This would often reduce the amount of space used and reduce staffing costs while still providing hot and cold food to passengers. Catering could otherwise be done via pre-ordered meals or on regional services, simply having the guard push a trolley through every so often to give people the ability to buy snacks and drinks.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Even on flights of 60-120 minutes the airlines will do a roaring trade off a trolley, selling nothing more than quality instant coffee and microwaved bacon baps. They’re very profitable for the airlines. Now the staff are effectively a free resource- they have to be there anyway- but the staff cost of one person and a trolley on a train shouldn’t be high enough to wipe out all the profit and turn it into a loss.
So I simply don’t believe TOCs that say catering loses money; it is far more likely it breaks even or makes a small profit but is simply deemed not worth the effort.
Airports have all the same facilities that railway stations do- Pret, Boots, Starbucks- yet the airlines still make plenty.
I’m not sure how to sort it though. Making it a mandatory franchise commitment just led to TOCs doing the bare minimum in a cack-handed way, presumably with the intent of persuading the DfT to remove the obligation. I’d love to know whether genuine innovation, such as the Virgin Shop, increased sales.
So I simply don’t believe TOCs that say catering loses money; it is far more likely it breaks even or makes a small profit but is simply deemed not worth the effort.
Airports have all the same facilities that railway stations do- Pret, Boots, Starbucks- yet the airlines still make plenty.
I’m not sure how to sort it though. Making it a mandatory franchise commitment just led to TOCs doing the bare minimum in a cack-handed way, presumably with the intent of persuading the DfT to remove the obligation. I’d love to know whether genuine innovation, such as the Virgin Shop, increased sales.
The difference being, I can't take a Leon Chilli Chicken Box on a Ryanair flight to Dublin but I can on an Avanti service to Euston from Man Pic.
It's a different world all together with airlines.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Far as I know you can provided it was bought the correct side of security. You certainly can on Sleasy.
Maybe the market is created by people thinking you can't? I think Eireflop don't let you take coffee on though, not for security but because you might knock it over when faffing about boarding in the confined space and damage the aircraft.
One of the key issues with trolleys is that they're bad at tea and coffee, a key product for online sales because the one you bought at the station will be cold within half an hour. People expect coffee these days to be made on an espresso machine (bean to cup or manual) and for tea to be made with boiling water. A trolley doesn't generally* do either of these.
It's quite possible that online at seat ordering done well (i.e. LNER's system, not Avanti's) might succeed, though.
* SBB use trolleys with Nespresso style machines (I think they're Illy ones) but British people don't like "short" coffees.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Course you can, there’s nothing to say you can’t, especially if bought airside.
Some airlines get a bit jumpy about people carrying coffee on to the plane, but most do let you if it’s in a lidded cup.
I’m surprised trolleys don’t have bean-to-cup machines. Our office has a counter-top bean-to-cup machine that would sit perfectly on a trolley; the machine has its own water tank and uses dried milk for lattes, etc. You see similar machines in Greggs or supermarket cafes.
Failing that, Ryanair did (maybe still do) sell coffee with what was effectively a cafetière lid. The water goes in the top, percolates through the coffee, it made a really nice cup. I think it was Lavazza.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Dried milk is manky. I accept it from our work machine when in the office because it's free, and I have some for backpacking on the basis of being better than nothing, but I wouldn't even pay £1 for it from a trolley.
See also UHT (which is why lattes are vile in the Netherlands; they basically don't do fresh milk).
TBH if it was going to be filter the best way is to just have a flask of pre-made filter on the trolley. That'll give you the best coffee you're likely to get on the move. Interestingly Boeing aircraft do generally have filter-brew machines, because that's a basic expectation in the US, but Ryanair just use them to heat water.
But it's just not as good as a coffee from a proper espresso machine in a proper shop at the station, so people just aren't going to choose it in preference unless it's very cheap (and that destroys the economics).
To slightly expand on what I said last night. I wouldn’t consider the future to be particularly good based on the direction of travel of most TOCs. It generally didn’t turn a profit even pre Covid, and we all know that cost cutting is the order of the day at the moment.
Out of interest what, if anything, do open access operators such as Lumo offer in this area?
Out of interest what, if anything, do open access operators such as Lumo offer in this area?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Lumo has a trolley and the ability to pre-order bigger stuff. Hull I think has catering in 1st but not Standard at the moment, which is a bit of a bizarre under-use of the staff and I wonder if it's industrial relations related that they don't go and do a trolley in Standard when not needed in the very small area of 1st.
Is there room for a local provider to do a hop on delivery service?
ie someone has a cafe on/near the stations at Salisbury and Andover, takes orders on an app/internet, jumps on a train and moves along it delivering, and then jumps off at the other end, and picks up orders for a train back again.
Obvious difficulty being if the train is full and standing (time for reservation only......)
Bit wary of getting Deliveroo to do it as the train will stink of takeaways.
Problem with 'proper' coffee is that it takes so long - either the trolley will take forever or the queues will be long, and delivery means multiple staff.
ie someone has a cafe on/near the stations at Salisbury and Andover, takes orders on an app/internet, jumps on a train and moves along it delivering, and then jumps off at the other end, and picks up orders for a train back again.
Obvious difficulty being if the train is full and standing (time for reservation only......)
Bit wary of getting Deliveroo to do it as the train will stink of takeaways.
Problem with 'proper' coffee is that it takes so long - either the trolley will take forever or the queues will be long, and delivery means multiple staff.
Thanks.
The Hull Trains scenario might be to give an incentive to upgrade to first?
We have similar at my TOC. On the occasions when there’s no trolly in standard the first class host will still just stick to first class, it definitely isn’t IR related.
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There would no doubt be concerns around the TOC being potentially liable for food poisoning etc.
How? Are they liable for food poisoning caused by the contractors who currently/previously did trolleys?
Quite possibly, but trolleys tend to serve low risk pre packaged stuff, and the TOCs have control and visibility over what is sold.
That wouldn’t be the case if random cafe owners were allowed to jump on and serve people hot meals.
I really don't think the TOC would be liable (and it wouldn't be random, they would be 'partners' as the modern world likes to say).
If its an issue then the food doesn't need to be hot. In fact hot products (even coffee) might be tricky - need to have a load of orders all hot for a particular time.....and if the train is late.....
Is beer served in bottles sold on trains? Just pondering the market for local breweries to hop on with a load of beer.....
philosopher
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Bean to cup vending machines could be put in every second or third carriage to provide reasonable quality coffee, plus tea and hot chocolate.
pdq
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There's a bit of an assumption going on that everyone travelling on a long journey is boarding somewhere with facilities to buy food and drink, or will have time to purchase at a change. Not the case.
Where are you putting the vending machine? Don't want it at the ends where it will cause congestion at the doors, and don't really want it in the middle as it would take seats and cause aisle congestion and annoyance for nearby passengers.
I suppose there’s nothing to stop people ordering Deliveroo to meet the train off their own back if they really want to.
It’s highly unlikely TOCs will want to get involved with facilitating this kind of thing - it’s a huge potential can of worms for a variety of reasons - they might as well just provide a trolley!
Why is it a can of worms - they just give a link to the provider, with no guarantees of provision, and then wash their hands. It would be almost like moving event catering at an airshow/fete etc
Unless there are legal issues around safety - do trolley operators have to have any specific train/station safety training signed off?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The main can of worms is the TOC getting caught up in a failure to meet the train.
Yes, it'd happen, it happened on a DB ICE not long ago...
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Most stations served by the InterCity TOCs do have somewhere to buy stuff before boarding. At stations that don't you could argue that offering preferential rents to get someone in would be cheaper than on-board catering.
Because if they give a link on their website then it’s going to be difficult to argue they aren’t supplying the product, so there may well be potential liability if someone does end up getting poisoned, or someone with a nut allergy is given something they shouldn’t be etc.
Then, as you say, what if the person bringing supplies from the local brewery trips over and injures themselves? And yes, trolley staff are indeed trained to use trolleys safely, and get them onto and off trains using ramps.
These are just some of the reasons why on train catering is done in house or provided by a limited number of specialist trusted companies with which formal arrangements are entered into (really just Rail Gourmet, AIUI).
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That too!
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pdq
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Yes, but not every long distance journey is on an InterCity TOC. I know TfW has been mentioned about keeping catering, but they are a good example of a long distance service calling at many small stations.
HamworthyGoods
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GWR catering rumours?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've certainly been miffed boarding at Ulverston at the lack of anything on board or even vaguely nearby, but that'd easily be solved by putting a regular vending machine and a Costa Express machine with a card reader on it in the booking office. Or even giving preferential rent for something like a small local shop to set up in the building.
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