What excess have I been sold?!

[IrishDave]

Long story short: I paid 80p for an excess on Sunday, and I know not why - I believe it should have been free; I would appreciate any and all advice!

On Sunday evening, holding the return portion of a Leamington Spa-London Terminals Off Peak Return route Via Banbury, I went to the ticket office at Euston to get an excess coupon to permit immediate travel from Euston to Coventry. There are, I believe, two ways of doing this: one, an overdistance excess, or two, a change of route excess (since London-Leamington is valid via Coventry on an Any Permitted).

The fare I had paid cost £33.00 with a railcard. According to BR Fares, both a Leamington-London Terminals route Any Permitted and a Coventry-London Terminals route Any Permitted cost £29.95 (because they have much greater peak restrictions than a route via Banbury). I thus expected not to have to pay a penny. Unfortunately it didn't work out like that...

The guy in the Virgin ticket office at Euston first tried to charge me £1.55, which surprised me, but as I was in a rush and I wasn't entirely sure of the Leam-London Any Permitted fare I was (reluctantly) willing to pay it. Once he'd issued it, he realised it was wrong (it had printed wrong), and then had to get out his calculator, and eventually decided that I had to pay half of that, 80p, which I did. I was issued the excess coupon shown at the top in the attached photo.

I was pretty well certain I shouldn't have had to pay a penny, but I paid mainly because it was already 20:45 and I wanted to get the 20:54 to Coventry, and if I missed that I'd have been on the 21:55 and home over an hour later (more than that on the day, in fact, thanks to the later fire at Watford Junction which I seem to have narrowly avoided).

I'm pretty sure the £1.55 was the correct excess for the other way round - if I'd held an Any Permitted and wanted a Route Banbury then £1.55 would be the correct excess, I believe, at half the difference? But I have no earthly idea of how 80p was arrived at... The ticket clerk made the argument that "Virgin weren't getting a penny out of that [my existing ticket]" - which annoyed me, because while he's correct I don't believe I should have had to pay anything - due to the unique way in which our fares structure works...

So, I have three questions:

1. How much should I have had to pay for the excess?
2. In the circumstances, do you think I should have paid or not?
3. If I should indeed have paid nothing, to whom should I complain (and is it worth doing so for the sake of 80p)?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Mods: if this is better in Fares Advice and Policy please feel free to move it]

 

[IrishDave]

Fare paid: http://brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=LMS&rlc=YNG&rte=0&ldn=0&tkt=SVR

Exessed to: http://brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=LMS&rlc=YNG&rte=267&ldn=0&tkt=SVR

No, other way round. In fact, I'm fairly sure that's exactly what he issued first, before realising it was wrong...

 

[MikeWh]

Fare paid: http://brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=LMS&rlc=YNG&rte=0&ldn=0&tkt=SVR

Exessed to: http://brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=LMS&rlc=YNG&rte=267&ldn=0&tkt=SVR

Difference = £3.05
Excess should be half of that, so £1.55 or £1.50 depending on rounding (some ticket issuing systems might actually ask for £1.52 or £1.53!)

So...

1) £1.50-£1.55
2) Yes
3) No grounds for complaint

As for the O/D excess, I wouldn't go down that road if I were you, as people will argue that you made it clear you were not "travelling beyond your destination" though I do admit that if you had simply purchased the excess then I am sure it would have been accepted via WCML, and I'd argue would have been valid, but that's a different story.

Revenue allocation is irrelevant to the discussion.

You were lucky to get it for 80p!

Except he had the via Banbury ticket and excessed it to the any permitted ...

 

[yorkie]

Except he had the via Banbury ticket and excessed it to the any permitted ...

Ah, sorry. That must be a mistake with the routeings then! I guess the price is meant to be the other way round. They'll probably fix that. It's not the first time I've seen it (but I won't give away the examples because I know some people use those tickets and would be rather unhappy if I gave the game away!)

In that case I guess the clerk also thought the fares were the other way round - it's inconceivable that they are that way round! But, once the error is pointed out, the excess should be zero.

It begs the question of why was the more expensive ticket sold? Edit: Ah, perhaps to arrive at a time valid by more expensive ticket.

 

[IrishDave]

Ah, sorry. That must be a mistake with the routeings then! I guess the price is meant to be the other way round. They'll probably fix that. It's not the first time I've seen it (but I won't give away the examples because I know some people use those tickets and would be rather unhappy if I gave the game away!)

In that case I guess the clerk also thought the fares were the other way round - it's inconceivable that they are that way round! But, once the error is pointed out, the excess should be zero.

It begs the question of why was the more expensive ticket sold?

The fares make a bit more sense once you realise there's a cheaper Super Off-Peak Return route Banbury at £18.15, which has similar (though not identical) validity to the Off-Peak Return route Any Permitted. The Off-Peak Return route Banbury is valid into Marylebone or Paddington after 1005, and is *not* evening peak restricted out of Marylebone (with the usual barred-to-HSTs out of Paddington) - a bargain at £33, frankly.

(Personally I'd argue that all Virgin-priced Off-Peak Returns should be renamed Super Off-Peak, and something in between should be introduced at a higher price point.)

As for why I bought the more expensive ticket, I know I could have bought the Any Permitted and excessed the outward to Via Banbury, but I didn't have time on my outward journey to go to the ticket office, buy the ticket and get the excess, so I bought the more expensive ticket knowing that all it was costing me was £1.55. Or so I thought...

Anyway, I was pretty sure of myself in saying that the excess was zero, and I think I must have rubbed him up the wrong way; maybe once he realised he tried to get out of it by charging me half...? Suggestions as to how to proceed welcome.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....On Sunday evening, holding the return portion of a Leamington Spa-London Terminals Off Peak Return route Via Banbury, I went to the ticket office at Euston to get an excess coupon to permit immediate travel from Euston to Coventry. There are, I believe, two ways of doing this: one, an overdistance excess, or two, a change of route excess (since London-Leamington is valid via Coventry on an Any Permitted).....

Unless your plan was to obtain the excess, then go to Marylebone and get to Coventry via Banbury, there was only one way to do it, off route. Over-Riding (often referred to as Over-Distance) is travelling beyond the destination on the ticket, not bypassing it altogether.

....So, I have three questions:

1. How much should I have had to pay for the excess?
2. In the circumstances, do you think I should have paid or not?
3. If I should indeed have paid nothing, to whom should I complain (and is it worth doing so for the sake of 80p)?

....

1) As far as I can see you should not have paid for it, assuming you traveled at a time allowed by the ticket.
2) I don't think you should have paid.
3) To the company that sold you the excess in the first instance (if you want your 80p back and/or you believe in the principle of things, yes it is worth it).

 

[bb21]

Why were you faffing around with an excess? If you are travelling by a cheaper route, then your ticket is automatically valid anyway.

Next time just get on the train.

 

[IrishDave]

Unless your plan was to obtain the excess, then go to Marylebone and get to Coventry via Banbury, there was only one way to do it, off route. Over-Riding (often referred to as Over-Distance) is travelling beyond the destination on the ticket, not bypassing it altogether.

I'm aware that overdistance excesses are subject to different interpretations by members of the forum, and I don't wish to revisit the argument. Hypothetically speaking, though, if Euston-Coventry-Leamington were *not* a permitted route, what is the correct course of action for me wanting to travel to Coventry (given that I'd already used the outward half of the ticket)? Brand new single?

1) As far as I can see you should not have paid for it, assuming you traveled at a time allowed by the ticket.
2) I don't think you should have paid.
3) To the company that sold you the excess in the first instance (if you want your 80p back and/or you believe in the principle of things, yes it is worth it).

It was a Sunday evening, so no time restrictions apply. I have to admit that I was rather blinkered into wanting to get the 2054 train - I'm fairly sure that if I'd stood my ground I'd have missed the train, by which time I might as well have gone to Marylebone anyway.

Why were you faffing around with an excess? If you are travelling by a cheaper route, then your ticket is automatically valid anyway.

Next time just get on the train.

I've often heard that quoted, but where exactly does it say that? Is the ticket actually valid, or is it simply that everyone is happy to ignore the need for a zero-fare excess coupon and allow it?

As for just getting on the train, I preferred a (relatively controlled) argument with the ticket office staff than an argument with the train manager - as usual at Euston we were ticket-checked on the ramp down to the platform. I wouldn't have fancied my chances of actually making it on a Virgin train with a "via Banbury" ticket that happens to be more expensive than the Any Permitted, and as I said I *really* didn't want to wait an hour...

One question for the ticket clerks: how do you actually issue an excess like that? Is the price not computed automatically?

 

[furlong]

The routeing guide.

Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description.

Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

(And yes, there is more than one way to interpret this - sadly it fails the "precise definition" test, in my opinion.)

 

[bb21]

Hypothetically speaking, though, if Euston-Coventry-Leamington were *not* a permitted route, what is the correct course of action for me wanting to travel to Coventry (given that I'd already used the outward half of the ticket)? Brand new single?

In that case, it is not a change of route, or over-distance, and your ticket is not valid at all along the WCML out of Euston, so you will need to buy a new ticket, in theory.

You might find a clerk willing to over-distance your ticket to Coventry Route High Wycombe, then do a change of route. There is nothing saying that it can't be done, but good luck finding anyone capable of doing that.

One question for the ticket clerks: how do you actually issue an excess like that? Is the price not computed automatically?

Depends. Some TIS will calculate the excess automatically if the original ticket is selected. Other TIS will ask the clerk to manually put in the price of the ticket already held.

 

[IrishDave]

The routeing guide. [quote snipped]

Aha, thank you. Nonetheless, good luck getting a "via Banbury" ticket past a Virgin guard at Euston...

Depends. Some TIS will calculate the excess automatically if the original ticket is selected. Other TIS will ask the clerk to manually put in the price of the ticket already held.

He manually entered 29.95 a few times, so I think he must have been trying to do the excess the wrong way round. That still doesn't explain how he came to a figure of 80p in the end...

Incidentally, any ideas why Leamington-London is route Banbury, but Coventry-London is route High Wycombe for the same price? If the latter was Banbury I'd just have bought that - I was coming from Coventry but needed to go via Reading on the outward, so I bought a single to Leam and the Leam-London ticket.

 

[furlong]

For Coventry to Paddington, why not buy an Any Permitted fare and use map CS in the routeing guide?

 

[IrishDave]

For Coventry to Paddington, why not buy an Any Permitted fare and use map CS in the routeing guide?

Peak restrictions. The Any Permitted Off-Peak Return isn't valid until 0940 into Reading, and I needed to catch the 0825 from Coventry, which arrives Reading at 0939. (The next train is an hour later.)

However, the route High Wycombe Off-Peak Return (not Super Off-Peak) would be valid on the 0825 if it weren't route High Wycombe, so I went for the Leam-London ticket at the same price which *is* valid (because it's route Banbury), and a single Cov-Leam to cover the missing portion. Total cost £35.95, which I thought was pretty good...

 

[bb21]

Aha, thank you. Nonetheless, good luck getting a "via Banbury" ticket past a Virgin guard at Euston...

Good luck? I managed the very same thing a few weeks back. Not the first time either.

(Excess issued onboard later on in case anyone's wondering.)

 

[OwlMan]

Technically London Terminals - Leamington is not valid via Coventry according to the public NRG - There is no mapped route. I assume that the Route using map TV is supposed to include a link to Leamington.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm aware that overdistance excesses are subject to different interpretations by members of the forum, and I don't wish to revisit the argument....

Probably wise, though the pages from 'The Manual' (FRPP/NFM) have been shown on this forum in a previous thread.

....Hypothetically speaking, though, if Euston-Coventry-Leamington were *not* a permitted route, what is the correct course of action for me wanting to travel to Coventry (given that I'd already used the outward half of the ticket)? Brand new single?....

Yes. Technically I suppose you could possibly argue 'deviation off route to a new destination' but then that excess is simply a new ticket from the point of divergence (allowing for NRCoC Condition 19), which I would imagine is London Euston anyway.

 

[IrishDave]

Good luck? I managed the very same thing a few weeks back. Not the first time either.

(Excess issued onboard later on in case anyone's wondering.)

Hmm, fair enough... Perhaps I should have more faith in Virgin. Out of interest were you checked on the ramp at Euston, and did you have much of an argument?

Technically London Terminals - Leamington is not valid via Coventry according to the public NRG - There is no mapped route. I assume that the Route using map TV is supposed to include a link to Leamington.

How odd. Both National Rail and East Coast show the Any Permitted as valid when putting in Leamington-Euston via Coventry. I think Leamington only became a routeing point a few years ago, and before that it was associated to Banbury, Coventry and Birmingham; given the Any Permitted fares are the same from Coventry and Leamington it would have been valid then...

Can anyone who has an old copy of the routeing guide corroborate that? One for the DfT perhaps, on grounds you can't take away what is, to me, a very reasonable route?

 

[bb21]

Hmm, fair enough... Perhaps I should have more faith in Virgin. Out of interest were you checked on the ramp at Euston, and did you have much of an argument?

Yes, at the ramps. Quite a few times it was the TM doing the checks himself/herself.

Of course I am aware that there are a lot of variables in play, and that not everyone will be treated in the same way.

How odd. Both National Rail and East Coast show the Any Permitted as valid when putting in Leamington-Euston via Coventry. I think Leamington only became a routeing point a few years ago, and before that it was associated to Banbury, Coventry and Birmingham; given the Any Permitted fares are the same from Coventry and Leamington it would have been valid then...

Can anyone who has an old copy of the routeing guide corroborate that? One for the DfT perhaps, on grounds you can't take away what is, to me, a very reasonable route?

The electronic version of the Routeing Guide is different to the public version anyway.

If it has long been established as a permitted route, it is highly likely to continue to accepted. Routes that look reasonable will be accepted, and they don't suddenly change overnight into something unreasonable. Guards don't always have the time to check the exact situation, that is assuming they know about the Routeing Guide and how it works, so the majority of them in the majority of cases will rely on experience and how reasonable a route looks.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Personally, I would've gone for a zero fare Overdistance Excess to Birmingham Stations route Any Permitted which would, of course, be valid via either route and for Break of Journey/stopping short.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Personally, I would've gone for a zero fare Overdistance Excess.....

Oh dear.....:roll:

 

[SickyNicky]

The electronic version of the Routeing Guide is different to the public version anyway.

And the link to Leamington IS in the electronic version of map TV, so booking engines will give itineraries.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Oh dear.....:roll:

Whilst it may officially be the "wrong" thing to do, it satisfies the OP's requirements, and avoids possible "But this train doesn't go via High Wycombe" arguments on VT.

Lazy? Certainly. Will anyone really give a damn? Probably not. Would I do it again? Yup.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And what of the consequences when they do give a damn?

Why is it okay for staff not to do their job properly all of a sudden?

 

[CyrusWuff]

And what of the consequences when they do give a damn?

If I thought that someone might object, even if they'd be wrong to do so, I'd go by the book. Though in this case, I'd forgotten the existence of "Any Permitted" fares to Leamington.

Why is it okay for staff not to do their job properly all of a sudden?

I'd put it down to apathy. It's a thankless job, even when you manage to save someone a not insignificant amount of money, which results in even the best clerks suffering burn out and simply giving up trying.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If I thought that someone might object, even if they'd be wrong to do so, I'd go by the book. Though in this case, I'd forgotten the existence of "Any Permitted" fares to Leamington....

How you can be certain that no-one would object?

What happens the next time that passenger wants to do the same thing? What if it is a member of staff who goes by the book?