What exactly is the problem with guards working from the cab on 195/331? Can/should it be rectified easily?

[py_megapixel]

Warning: probably inadvertently incorrect assumptions ahead - I have no first-hand experience!

I know in the past some TOCs have had policies that working from the cab should be treated as a last resort, with the default being in the passenger saloon to provide customer service. I'm not sure if Northern have such a policy at the moment.

Additionally it's been said many times that guards can't work 195s and 331s from the cab because there are no usable door controls. However, these controls must be present in the cabs, as these units were supposed to be DCO-ready, were they not? So is it a case of the buttons only work when a driver has their key on at that end? And if that's the case is it something that can be fixed with, for example, a change to the software?

It seems to me that if a simple fix is possible, it would be pragmatic to implement it, as trains are slowly but surely becoming busier to the extent that it's already not really practical for the guard to block off a large area to be able to keep their distance.
(This thread is NOT to debate the merits of social distancing - the fact of the matter is clearly some guards feel safer if they have it in place, and given that it makes an awful lot more sense for them to have their own cab than to have to prevent passengers from using an area that would otherwise be available)

 

[jonnyfan]

The cab does have door control buttons on the central drivers desk console, however they are not near the cab doors, so using them from the platform is impossible as you would have to fully re-enter the cab to use them - leading to extended dwell times and the inability to release the doors again quickly if someone became trapped in the doors. And a modification would need to be done to enable these buttons to work in a 'non-active' cab). So door control buttons would have to be fitted adjacent to the cab doors.

Another issue is the cab door itself, it is a slam door and has proved to be of poor design - with numerous instances of the doors opening while the train is in motion. So using them multiple times per journey could cause more incidents of this.
Also the cab floor is higher than the saloon floor, so the gap from the cab to the platform is larger than from the saloon - and I feel that would fail risk assessments due to the excessive gaps and stepping distances at some platforms.

Guard operation from the cab on 195/331s is a no-go from my experience.

I personally don't have an issue with working these units from the saloon controls. The design flaw is in the layout of the saloon controls, which are at alternate doors. When operating from the left hand side (the side where the vast majority of the platforms are in this country) you have to walk from the cab to the 2nd passenger door, whereas if operating on the right, you walk to the 1st door - fine when the train isn't busy, but on a crush loaded service it was a nightmare especially if you had to swap from one side to another between stations! It would be difficult to fit additional door control panels due to the set up of the emergency alarms/egress equipment by each door. So there is no easy solution.

Will anything be done? I can't see it. I think they will wait for union agreements for Driver Open, Guard Close on these units (or something along those lines) - which removes the issue of the guard getting stuck at the wrong set of doors on a packed-out train.

 

[Kite159]

I assume the door controls are the same for the West Midlands & TfW examples?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I assume the door controls are the same for the West Midlands & TfW examples?

I don't know about door controls, but TfW have specified an automatic plug door for the cab rather than the manual door Northern (presumably) cheaped out on. This does make me wonder if, as they don't have any plans for DOO*, they are going to spec guard controls in the cab too, as otherwise there would not be a lot gained.

* The 195s and 331s were ordered with the intention of moving to DOO which was later dropped after a long, crippling series of strikes, so it's not surprising that the facilities for guard operation might be limited.

 

[skyhigh]

The cab does have door control buttons on the central drivers desk console, however they are not near the cab doors, so using them from the platform is impossible as you would have to fully re-enter the cab to use them - leading to extended dwell times and the inability to release the doors again quickly if someone became trapped in the doors. And a modification would need to be done to enable these buttons to work in a 'non-active' cab). So door control buttons would have to be fitted adjacent to the cab doors.

Another issue is the cab door itself, it is a slam door and has proved to be of poor design - with numerous instances of the doors opening while the train is in motion. So using them multiple times per journey could cause more incidents of this.
Also the cab floor is higher than the saloon floor, so the gap from the cab to the platform is larger than from the saloon - and I feel that would fail risk assessments due to the excessive gaps and stepping distances at some platforms.

Guard operation from the cab on 195/331s is a no-go from my experience.

Spot on. If they'd thought about it at the design phase, they could have worked out a way to do it. But with the way they're designed, it'll be impossible for a guard to control the doors from the cab. You can't just put door controls on the back wall of the cab by the doors either, as there's circuit breakers there in cupboards which take up all the space. In addition you'll need to modify the ASDO system (as at each DCP guards have the option to override ASDO forwards/backwards of their position). There is a control screen in the cab, but it can't alter the setup without a driver's key in.

So, realistically to enable door control from the cab you'd need at least:
Mods to move equipment for space to install door controls in the cabs
Modification to the cab door
Modification to the step down from the cab door (hard, as you'd need a step board etc that would mean the trains need to be cleared on all the routes again as they'll be wider)
Modification to ASDO
Modification to signal buzzer so it sounds in non-leading cab

A better and probably cheaper mod would be to add DCPs at the doors which don't currently have them, but I can't see that happening any time soon.

 

[_toommm_]

Just had a thought on this - LNER allow their catering staff to deliver orders to passenger’s’ seats, up and down a potentially nine-carriage train. Weird how Northern then try to block off space for their guards to walk up and down to the door controls.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I personally don't have an issue with working these units from the saloon controls. The design flaw is in the layout of the saloon controls, which are at alternate doors. When operating from the left hand side (the side where the vast majority of the platforms are in this country) you have to walk from the cab to the 2nd passenger door, whereas if operating on the right, you walk to the 1st door - fine when the train isn't busy, but on a crush loaded service it was a nightmare especially if you had to swap from one side to another between stations! It would be difficult to fit additional door control panels due to the set up of the emergency alarms/egress equipment by each door. So there is no easy solution.

Another design issue I noted when travelling on 331s was, once the Guard has opened the door he is working from he/she then has to check the platform before releasing the other doors but to do this has to step back into the train in the face of passengers leaving the train through the door he/she is working from - i.e. the door controls are too far from the door meaning he cannot check the platform from the door controls and cannot reach the door controls from the platform.

 

[jonnyfan]

Another design issue I noted when travelling on 331s was, once the Guard has opened the door he is working from he/she then has to check the platform before releasing the other doors but to do this has to step back into the train in the face of passengers leaving the train through the door he/she is working from - i.e. the door controls are too far from the door meaning he cannot check the platform from the door controls and cannot reach the door controls from the platform.

They are awkwardly placed, if you have a platform that you can't see fully when standing on the door ledge you have no option to step off and then re-enter the saloon. At most stations I personally manage to see the platform and release the doors before stepping down. However it depends on each conductor, everyone has their own ways of doing things (within the rules).