what does this mean

[badger1badger]

on the approach to leeds from the aire valley end there are letters above the tracks A B C D E F .......

What do they mean ?

paul

 

[CarterUSM]

on the approach to leeds from the aire valley end there are letters above the tracks A B C D E F .......

What do they mean ?

paul

I'd hazard a guess at them signifying the various lines on approach/exit to the station.

 

[GB]

Are there multiple signals on a gantry?

Letters or numbers are often put on signal gantries (where there are multiple signals) to reduce the risk of a driver reading the wrong signal.

 

[badger1badger]

they appear to be 1 letter above each line ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yes - they are identifying the line to the driver to prevent what is known as a read-across SPAD.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Here's the track plan for Leeds station. (click to enlarge).

You can clearly see the track identification along the top of the plan.

they appear to be 1 letter above each line ?

Exactly! As the plan notes in the "remarks" column: A=A line B=B line C=Cline etc.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thats a very interesting diagram thanks for posting it!

 

[moggie]

I concur with Ralphchadkirk. A typical SPAD mitigation measure recommended by the Signal Sighting Committee to assist the driver in identfying the signal to be read on the approach to a gantry carrying multiple signals for adjacent lines - especially if there's a curved approach.

 

[Bastiaan]

Thats a very interesting diagram thanks for posting it!

If you're looking for more of these diagrams, then check the Track and Route Mileages on the Network Rail website. Link

 

[Old Timer]

Why this predeliction for naming lines A to whatever these days ?

Are our new era train drivers incapable of remembering what are the Fasts/Slows/Electrics, etc ??

 

[Lee_Again]

Why this predeliction for naming lines A to whatever these days ?

Are our new era train drivers incapable of remembering what are the Fasts/Slows/Electrics, etc ??

They are shown as routes on signals. i.e. when a signal is at green, yellow or double yellow a letter indicating the route is shown to aid drivers. Single letters, or numbers, are easier to show than names. The terms you use are still widely used in all other areas. Pretty obvious really.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

They are shown as routes on signals. i.e. when a signal is at green, yellow or double yellow a letter indicating the route is shown to aid drivers. Single letters, or numbers, are easier to show than names. The terms you use are still widely used in all other areas. Pretty obvious really.

Um, no. What you are describing a theatre boxes. What we are talking about are ways of differentiating lines in busy layouts.

 

[GB]

Um, no. What you are describing a theatre boxes. What we are talking about are ways of differentiating lines in busy layouts.

Exactly, they are there as an aid to the driver to reduce the risk of reading the wrong signal (as you and others have previously said) so I'm not sure why OT is getting in a twist about them? Surely anything that helps is a good thing?

...and before we go on about "new era train drivers" and their mistakes, all I will say is that there are plenty of old hands out there that make the same mistakes.:roll:

 

[Old Timer]

Other areas have used DF/DS/, etc etc.

It amazes me that despite layouts and signalling now being considerably less complex than years ago, we now have to go to extraordinary lengths to provide more and more information to todays Drivers. A strange paradox.

And incidentally whilst they might "aid" (who knows because no-one ever reports the fact they almost spadded) they are not the panacea some think they are.

GB
I am aware that everyone makes mistakes, however my personal experience is that spads appear to be much higher than they ever were under BR. I have worked boxes where a spad had almost never been heard of, now I read that signals in the same control area where I never experienced any problems are suddenly high spad risk signals !

 

[GB]

From what I have heard, there was alot under BR that was brushed under the carpet and never reported on.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I prefer UF/US/DF/DS simply because it tells you more about the line than A/B/C/D.

While I think they are a good idea, they are only the solution to one issue, rather than the larger problem.

 

[Old Timer]

It would be interesting to hear what one of the older generation BR drivers have to observe about it all.

 

[NSEFAN]

Why this predeliction for naming lines A to whatever these days ?

Are our new era train drivers incapable of remembering what are the Fasts/Slows/Electrics, etc ??

What about if all the lines are bi-directional? Then they could not be named UMF, UMS, etc.

 

[CarterUSM]

Glasgow central has this set up at gantry A now after being re-signalled a couple of years ago, but beyond it the lines are still named albeit more 'simply' now.

 

[Old Timer]

What about if all the lines are bi-directional? Then they could not be named UMF, UMS, etc.

Plenty of areas have Bi-Di lines which are named in one direction.

Every line has to have a primary direction to enable it to be used during times of failure etc anyway. There are only a very few exceptions to this, and these are normally in very busy areas, or at the boundary between adjoining boxes.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think we're confusing two different, but similar designations.
The terminology of Up Fast, Up Slow etc applies to running lines and most stations.

However, there are a few situations where complex station layouts are connected to the running lines via a restricted set of lines which connect all platforms with all lines. The Letter designation applies before the lines connect to the actual running lines.

Two excellent examples are in Scotland: All 14 Glasgow Central platforms condense into just 7 lines over the bridge, and THEN, are seaprated into 13 lines, the Up Fast, Down Slow or whatever; Edinburgh Waverly is another, all west facing platforms must converge into just 4 lines in order to get through the 4 lines of the Mound Tunnels. Only after that tunnel, do they separate into their functional lines (with the traditional terminology).
To illustrate this, here is the track plan for the Mound Tunnel. At the top, the lines leaving Waverley are A, B, C, D. After the tunnel are the crossovers which route traffic onto the Up/Down etc.

At the foot of the diagram, you see the classic terminology; in this cast Up and Down North (going towards Forth Bridge) and Up and Down South (towards Glasgow, Carlisle etc).
This example is an excellent illustration of the difference in terminology.

If it helps in understanding this plan, here's the adjoining plan of the station itself:


I hope this shows that there is a very real difference between alphabetic and functional terminology in complex stations.

 

[yorkie]

I prefer UF/US/DF/DS simply because it tells you more about the line than A/B/C/D.

While I think they are a good idea, they are only the solution to one issue, rather than the larger problem.

But it doesn't really work just outside Leeds. None of them are fast or slow lines, and they go to many destinations at that point, and are all bi-directional.

 

[ungreat]

It would be interesting to hear what one of the older generation BR drivers have to observe about it all.

New drivers are expected to learn the route whilst training as a driver..thus diverting their attention from actually learning the job...a bad move,and solely done to cut costs and time.Route learning time is cut,meaning no proper route knowledge.Incentive of more pay makes the trainee sign quick,meaning more **** ups.Simple!

 

[Tomnick]

But it doesn't really work just outside Leeds. None of them are fast or slow lines, and they go to many destinations at that point, and are all bi-directional.

Even between Leeds station and Whitehall Jn though, they do still resemble three pairs of lines (A and B are roughly equivalent to Up and Down Harrogate, C and D Down and Up Doncaster, E and F Down and Up Huddersfield). Obviously there's numerous movements between lines at this point, but that wouldn't stop them being designated in a more 'descriptive' fashion!

 

[Trog]

Why this predeliction for naming lines A to whatever these days ?

Are our new era train drivers incapable of remembering what are the Fasts/Slows/Electrics, etc ??

Also what is this obsession with relief lines, as if everywhere was now part of the Great Western Region. :roll: Why copy them after all it took them a generation just to get the rails the right distance apart.


What was wrong with something descriptive that sounds more North Western like Up Passenger Loop, Down Low Level, Down Through Siding No1 etc.

 

[chuffchuff]

New Cross to London Bridge has been 1, 2,3,4,5,6 and UPL
since before I started