What does a guard’s e-ticket reader actually check?

[CaptainHaddock]

It’s a common sight these days that, when the guard comes round to inspect tickets, many young people just hold out their phones, the guard points his reader at their screen and a beep is enough to satisfy him that they hold a valid ticket. What I’m puzzled about is what does the e-reader actually check?

I’m assuming that it’s a simple check that the ticket is valid for today’s date and that the person is on the right train but how does the card reader know where it is at any given time? For example if you hold a Liverpool to Leeds ticket but stay on the train beyond Leeds and travel through to York, how would the card reader know the train had gone past the e-ticket's destination? Does it have some kind of satnav fitted to determine its location or is this something the guard would have to check manually?

Secondly does the card reader check permitted routeings? Suppose you held a Sheffield to London ticket routed “via Chesterfield” and tried to use it via Doncaster instead? Would the card reader flag this up as not permitted and if so how would it alert the guard?

Lastly what about period return tickets when the traveller wishes to break his journey on the return portion? An example in this case would be if someone holding a Newcastle to London ticket decided to stop off in York overnight on his way back (I’ve used York as an example as it has no ticket barriers). When our traveller continues his journey back to Newcastle the following morning would the guard’s card reader tell him that all or just part of the return portion had already been used? If not, what’s to stop said traveller using the same ticket multiple times to make single journeys from London to Newcastle?

 

[Mike395]

I don't know exactly how it works in terms of knowing where the train is, but the software on the device will determine whether the ticket is *likely* valid and beep accordingly (there's also sometimes e.g. a different bleep tone for railcard discounts), with the full ticket details appearing on their screen at the same time (so guards/RPIs can carry out the same visual checks on routing etc as if they were looking at a physical ticket). The guard can then also digitally 'clip' the ticket to prevent multiple uses.

 

[scrapy]

A lot of it depends on how the software is programmed by the company and by the guard. There are also several different systems used by different TOCs.

For example if guard hasn't inputted what particular service they are working, all advance tickets will show as valid within that route. If they have, tickets for other timed services will flag up invalid (these can still be manually accepted by the guard for service disruption) They can also put in what stations they are checking between. The machine may have access to live train data so would know for example if a ticket has been purchased after boarding.

Generally with routings, if the machine isn't tied to a certain service, all tickets with a routing (eg via x or not via x) will flag up for manual approval or rejection. If the service has been set, then any 'via' stations that are on the trains booked route will appear valid automatically but all others will need checking manually. So for example on a Colne to Preston service, a Colne to Edinburgh via Carlisle ticket, would show 'check route' because Carlisle isn't on that route, but a Colne to Lancaster via Preston ticket, would automatically show valid as Preston is on that route. The machine has no knowledge of the routing guide.

 

[Haywain]

Does it have some kind of satnav fitted to determine its location or is this something the guard would have to check manually?

No, but it should be programmed with the service that the guard is working and will 'read' the schedule of that service.

Lastly what about period return tickets when the traveller wishes to break his journey on the return portion? An example in this case would be if someone holding a Newcastle to London ticket decided to stop off in York overnight on his way back (I’ve used York as an example as it has no ticket barriers). When our traveller continues his journey back to Newcastle the following morning would the guard’s card reader tell him that all or just part of the return portion had already been used? If not, what’s to stop said traveller using the same ticket multiple times to make single journeys from London to Newcastle?

The clip for a used ticket will actually show when the ticket was clipped, who by, and on which service. In the case of your traveller, I believe that when scanned the ticket will simply flag as used and the guard will need to check whether it has been used completely. That can be done by checking the details of a previous clip, which will be fairly conclusive, or simply by checking with the customer. Now, there is always a possibility that the TIS has been programmed with the wrong train details but that would actually cause the guard problems with ticket checks by flagging too many tickets as 'wrong'.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

No, but it should be programmed with the service that the guard is working and will 'read' the schedule of that service.

The clip for a used ticket will actually show when the ticket was clipped, who by, and on which service. In the case of your traveller, I believe that when scanned the ticket will simply flag as used and the guard will need to check whether it has been used completely. That can be done by checking the details of a previous clip, which will be fairly conclusive, or simply by checking with the customer. Now, there is always a possibility that the TIS has been programmed with the wrong train details but that would actually cause the guard problems with ticket checks by flagging too many tickets as 'wrong'.

Interesting, but in the case of my example, how would the "previous clip" show that our traveller had broken his journey overnight at York if, say, the ticket inspection was done at some point between Peterborough and Grantham and the traveller hadn't told the guard where he was getting off? As there are no ticket barriers at York, there's surely no way the e-ticket would know where he had broken his journey and thus when he continued his journey back to Newcastle next day any scan would only show the return portion had been used but not where to?

 

[Haywain]

As there are no ticket barriers at York, there's surely no way the e-ticket would know where he had broken his journey and thus when he continued his journey back to Newcastle next day any scan would only show the return portion had been used but not where to?

It wouldn't show where the ticket had been used to, but it would show where it had been clipped and on which service. This is really no different to a paper ticket and ultimately the passenger will have to explain if asked about that. However, whilst threads on the forum often get carried away about break of journey, this is not a matter that is of any concern to the vast majority of rail travellers.

 

[L401CJF]

Guard here, we use the zebra (star mobile) machines.

It comes up green if its in date, but isn't clever enough to know if it's valid for that time of day, eg off peak ticket at peak time.

They will flag up yellow if there's a route restriction eg "Via ABC", or if a railcard discount is applied.

It will flag up red with a reason why eg if expired, too early, wrong route, wrong service (if advance) used max number of times.

For each scan it shows-
-Ticket type
-From/to
-Retailer (Trainline etc)
-Time bought
-Previous scans (time, location/service) and whether it was marked as accept/warning/reject
-Ticket number etc

We have a few options. We can mark as accept, mark as warning and select a reason eg missing railcard, wrong route etc. We can mark as reject (similar list of reasons). Those marked or rejected will be visible to the next person who scans it.

For us if we mark a ticket as warn/reject these are trawled by the digital fraud team and if patterns emerge details for accounts are requested and the person on file is contacted.

Hope this is of interest!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Guard here, we use the zebra (star mobile) machines.

It comes up green if its in date, but isn't clever enough to know if it's valid for that time of day, eg off peak ticket at peak time.

They will flag up yellow if there's a route restriction eg "Via ABC", or if a railcard discount is applied.

It will flag up red with a reason why eg if expired, too early, wrong route, wrong service (if advance) used max number of times.

For each scan it shows-
-Ticket type
-From/to
-Retailer (Trainline etc)
-Time bought
-Previous scans (time, location/service) and whether it was marked as accept/warning/reject
-Ticket number etc

We have a few options. We can mark as accept, mark as warning and select a reason eg missing railcard, wrong route etc. We can mark as reject (similar list of reasons). Those marked or rejected will be visible to the next person who scans it.

For us if we mark a ticket as warn/reject these are trawled by the digital fraud team and if patterns emerge details for accounts are requested and the person on file is contacted.

Hope this is of interest!

Doesn't sound anywhere near as good as out TTK system, you don't even need to look at the phone the different beeps tell you if it's valid/invalid valid only with a railcard etc.

 

[boiledbeans2]

I have a follow on question here.

Once on a GWR service, the guard asked to see my digital railcard. He scanned the QR code with a small device and then walked away. There wasn't any beep and he didn't seem to check any screen.

So I'm not sure how he determined if it was valid. It seemed more for "logging" purposes.

 

[johntea]

I think most guards although they look like they just hear the beep and move on do glance at the details, I had to do Wakefield Kirkgate to Castleford via Knottingley once as I had just missed a connection for the direct service where the ticket was scanned and the guard moved on only to return a few seconds later just to check I knew I was on the Knottingley service and he wouldn't need to check my ticket again as he was then covering the trip back to Leeds via Castleford

Thinking about it this morning on Northern at least they do check the 'via X only' bit as the guard had a conversation with a passenger about a ticket with such a restriction advising they were happy to let them travel but they may run into issues at the destination station barriers and/or staff

LNER once scanned my Grand Central advance ticket and obviously that was a reject but the guard was aware that an agreement was in place at the time for Grand Central passengers to use the LNER service as the Grand Central unit had broken down, not sure if they scanned them anyway so they could log all the Grand Central ticket holders and then go and moan at Grand Central or something

 

[158801]

I checked tickets once between York and Newcastle.

A female showed me the return portion of an off peak return (the outward journey had been made 3 weeks earlier).

The ticket she showed me was from Liverpool to Newcastle.

I scanned the ticket. It said that it had already been used.

I checked with the female. She agreed. It had been used between Liverpool and York and she had had a few days in York - breaking her journey.

So far, so good.

I checked the scan history.

The last scan was done by an LNER guard.

I asked her how, if she has previously gone no further than York, had someone from LNER scanned her ticket ?

The result - a new, full fare ticket